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Pope Francis tells 60 Minutes in rare interview: “the globalization of indifference is a very ugly disease”

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Francis is the first pope from the Americas, the first of his name, and more than any other pope in recent memory, has dedicated his life and ministry to the poor, the peripheral, and the forgotten. All while leading the Catholic Church on difficult, sometimes controversial issues that not everyone supports. We were granted a rare interview at the Vatican, and spoke to him, in his native Spanish, through a translator, for more than an hour. Not lost in translation was the 87 year old’s warmth, intelligence and conviction. We began by discussing the Church’s first World Children’s Day. Next weekend, Pope Francis will welcome tens of thousands of young people to the Vatican, including refugees of war.

Norah O’Donnell: During World Children’s Day, the U.N. says over a million people will be facing famine in Gaza, many of them children. 

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): Not just in Gaza. Think of Ukraine. Many kids from Ukraine come here. You know something? That those children don’t know how to smile? I’ll say something to them (mimics smile)… they have forgotten how to smile. And that is very painful.

Norah O’Donnell: Do you have a message for Vladimir Putin when it comes to Ukraine?

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): Please, warring countries, all of them, stop. Stop the war. You must find a way of negotiating for peace. Strive for peace. A negotiated peace is always better than an endless war. 

Pope Francis and Norah O'Donnell
Pope Francis and Norah O’Donnell

60 Minutes


Norah O’Donnell: What’s happening– in Israel and Gaza, has caused so much division, so much pain around the world. I don’t know if you’ve seen in the United States, big protests on college campuses and growing antisemitism. What would you say about how to change that?

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): All ideology is bad, and antisemitism is an ideology, and it is bad. Any “anti” is always bad. You can criticize one government or another, the government of Israel, the Palestinian government. You can criticize all you want, but not “anti” a people. Neither anti-Palestinian nor antisemitic. No.

Norah O’Donnell: I know you call for peace. You have called for a cease-fire in many of your sermons. Can you help negotiate peace?

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): (sighs) What I can do is pray. I pray a lot for peace. And also, to suggest, “Please, stop. Negotiate.”

Prayer has been at the center of the pope’s life since he was born Jorge Mario Bergoglio in Argentina, in 1936, into a family of Italian immigrants. Before entering the seminary, Bergoglio worked as a chemist.

His own personal formula is simplicity. He still wears the plain silver cross he wore as the archbishop of Buenos Aires. Though it’s not what Francis wears, but where he lives that set the tone for his papacy, 11 years ago.  

Instead of a palace above St. Peter’s Square, he chose the Vatican guest house Casa Santa Marta as his home. 

We met him there under a painting of the Virgin Mary. Surrounded by the sacred, Francis has not forsaken his sense of humor, even when discussing serious subjects, like the migrant crisis.

Norah O’Donnell: My grandparents were Catholic. Immigrated from Northern Ireland in the 1930s to the United States, seeking a better life. And I know your family, too, fled fascism. And you have talked about with migrants, many of them children, that you encourage governments to build bridges, not walls.

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): Migration is something that makes a country grow. They say that you Irish migrated and brought the whiskey, and that the Italians migrated and brought the mafia… (laugh) It’s a joke. Don’t take it badly. But, migrants sometimes suffer a lot. They suffer a lot.

Pope Francis and Norah O'Donnell
Pope Francis and Norah O’Donnell

60 Minutes


Norah O’Donnell: I grew up in Texas, and I don’t know if you’ve heard, but the state of Texas is attempting to shut down a Catholic charity on the border with Mexico that offers undocumented migrants humanitarian assistance. What do you think of that?

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): That is madness. Sheer madness. To close the border and leave them there, that is madness. The migrant has to be received. Thereafter you see how you are going to deal with him. Maybe you have to send him back, I don’t know, but each case ought to be considered humanely. Right? 

A few months after becoming pope, Francis went to a small Italian island near Africa, to meet migrants fleeing poverty and war.

Norah O’Donnell: Your first trip as Pope was the Island of Lampedusa, where you talked about suffering. And I was so struck when you talked about the globalization of indifference. What is happening? 

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): Do you want me to state it plainly? People wash their hands! There are so many Pontius Pilates on the loose out there… who see what is happening, the wars, the injustice, the crimes… “That’s OK, that’s OK” and wash their hands. It’s indifference. That is what happens when the heart hardens… and becomes indifferent. Please, we have to get our hearts to feel again. We cannot remain indifferent in the face of such human dramas. The globalization of indifference is a very ugly disease. Very ugly.

Pope Francis has not been indifferent to the Church’s most insidious scandal– the rampant sexual abuse of hundreds of thousands of children worldwide, for decades.  

Norah O’Donnell: You have done more than anyone to try and reform the Catholic Church and repent for years of unspeakable sexual abuse against children by members of the clergy. But has the church done enough?

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): It must continue to do more. Unfortunately, the tragedy of the abuses is enormous. And against this, an upright conscience and not only to not permit it but to put in place the conditions so that it does not happen.

Pope Francis
Pope Francis

60 Minutes


Norah O’Donnell: You have said zero tolerance.

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): It cannot be tolerated. When there is a case of a religious man or woman who abuses, the full force of the law falls upon them. In this there has been a great deal of progress.

It’s Francis’ capacity for forgiveness and openness that has defined his leadership of the Church’s nearly 1.4 billion Catholics. He put them and the world on notice, during an impromptu press conference on a plane in 2013, when he spoke on the subject of homosexuality.

“If someone is gay,” he said, “and he searches for the Lord and has good will…who am I to judge?” 

… and he did not stop there.

Norah O’Donnell: Last year you decided to allow Catholic priests to bless same-sex couples. That’s a big change. Why?

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): No, what I allowed was not to bless the union. That cannot be done because that is not the sacrament. I cannot. The Lord made it that way. But to bless each person, yes. The blessing is for everyone. For everyone. To bless a homosexual-type union, however, goes against the given right, against the law of the Church. But to bless each person, why not? The blessing is for all. Some people were scandalized by this. But why? Everyone! Everyone!

Norah O’Donnell: You have said, “Who am I to judge?” “Homosexuality is not a crime.”

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): No. It is a human fact. 

Norah O’Donnell: There are conservative bishops in the United States that oppose your new efforts to revisit teachings and traditions. How do you address their criticism?

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): You used an adjective, “conservative.” That is, conservative is one who clings to something and does not want to see beyond that. It is a suicidal attitude. Because one thing is to take tradition into account, to consider situations from the past, but quite another is to be closed up inside a dogmatic box. 

Pope Francis has placed more women in positions of power than any of his predecessors, but he told us he opposes allowing women to be ordained as priests or deacons.

Pope Francis
Pope Francis

60 Minutes


Francis’ devotion to traditional doctrine led one Vatican reporter to note that he’s changed the tune of the Church, but the lyrics essentially remain the same. This frustrates those who want to see him change policy on Roman Catholic priests marrying; contraception, and surrogate motherhood.  

Norah O’Donnell: I know women who are cancer survivors who cannot bear children, and they turn to surrogacy. This is against church doctrine.

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): In regard to surrogate motherhood, in the strictest sense of the term, no, it is not authorized. Sometimes surrogacy has become a business, and that is very bad. It is very bad.

Norah O’Donnell: But sometimes for some women it is the only hope.

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): It could be. The other hope is adoption. I would say that in each case the situation should be carefully and clearly considered, consulting medically and then morally as well. I think there is a general rule in these cases, but you have to go into each case in particular to assess the situation, as long as the moral principle is not skirted. But you are right. I want to tell you that I really liked your expression when you told me, “In some cases it is the only chance.” It shows that you feel these things very deeply. Thank you. (smiles)

Norah O’Donnell: I think that’s why so many people– have found hope with you, because you have been more open and accepting perhaps than other previous leaders of the church.

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): You have to be open to everything. The Church is like that: Everyone, everyone, everyone. “That so-and-so is a sinner…?” Me too, I am a sinner. Everyone! The Gospel is for everyone. If the Church places a customs officer at the door, that is no longer the church of Christ. Everyone.

Norah O’Donnell: When you look at the world what gives you hope?

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): Everything. You see tragedies, but you also see so many beautiful things. You see heroic mothers, heroic men, men who have hopes and dreams, women who look to the future. That gives me a lot of hope. People want to live. People forge ahead. And people are fundamentally good. We are all fundamentally good. Yes, there are some rogues and sinners, but the heart itself is good. 

Produced by Keith Sharman, Julie Morse and Anna Matranga. Associate producer, Roxanne Feitel. Broadcast associates, Eliza Costas and Callie Teitelbaum. Edited by Jorge J. García.

Pope Francis sits down for a historic interview with CBS Evening News anchor and managing editor Norah O’Donnell in an hour-long special airing Monday, May 20 at 10 p.m. ET on CBS and streaming on Paramount+. In a wide-ranging conversation, Francis speaks about countries at war, his vision for the Catholic Church, his legacy, his hope for children and more.



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Italian mafia fugitive arrested in Colombia after 4 years on the run is seen visiting Pablo Escobar’s grave

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More than 200 sentenced in Italy mafia trial


More than 200 people sentenced in Italy mafia trial

04:04

Italian police announced on Friday the arrest in  Colombia of a dangerous fugitive accused of being the intermediary between the Latin American country’s drug cartels and the Naples mafia.

Luigi Belvedere has been sentenced to almost 19 years in jail for international drug trafficking but has been on the run since December 2020.

He was captured in the Colombian city of Medellin overnight.

In announcing his arrest, Italian police released a photo of Belvedere visiting the grave of Pablo Escobar, the founder and boss of the Medellin cartel, who was killed by police in 1993.

luigi-belvedere-screenshot-2024-10-25-064346.jpg
Luigi Belvedere in an undated photo.

Polizia di Stato


Belvedere, a broker from Caserta, north of Naples, “specialized in the illegal importation of cocaine (and) acted as an intermediary between Colombia cartels and some of the clans of the Casalesi,” the  Italian interior ministry said in a statement,

The Casalesi are a notorious branch of the Camorra mafia. Naples has been the traditional base for the mafia-type Camorra syndicate, an umbrella for many different clans.

Investigators located him in Columbia, where they said he was “active in the organization of drug shipments from South America to Europe”, in part because of his use of a “well-known messaging system,” police said.

Belvedere, believed to be around 32 years old and who was on the Italian interior ministry’s list of dangerous fugitives, was tracked down with the support of Columbian investigators and European Union policing body Europol.

The arrest comes about three months after a Norwegian man accused of leading a crime ring that trafficked cocaine from South America to Europe on sailboats was captured in Colombia. Pazooki Farhad — dubbed “The Profesor” — was detained at El Dorado airport, while his alleged right-hand man and fellow Norwegian Bernsten Bjarte was captured in the Caribbean coastal city of Barranquilla, police said.



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Karim Khan, ICC prosecutor seeking war crimes charges against Israel’s Netanyahu, accused of sexual misconduct

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The Hague, Netherlands — As the International Criminal Court’s top prosecutor sought war crimes charges this year against Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over actions in Gaza, he was engulfed in a very different personal crisis playing out behind the scenes. Karim Khan faced accusations that he tried for more than a year to coerce a female aide into a sexual relationship and groped her against her will. He’s categorically denied the allegations, saying there was “no truth to suggestions of misconduct.” Court officials have said they may have been made as part of an Israeli intelligence smear campaign.

Two co-workers in whom the woman confided at the ICC’s headquarters at The Hague reported the alleged misconduct in early May to the court’s independent watchdog, which says it interviewed the woman and ended its inquiry after five days when she opted against filing a formal complaint. Khan himself was never questioned.

But the matter may not be over.

The Fourth Summit Of First Ladies And Gentlemen In Kyiv
Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court Karim Khan is seen at a summit in Kyiv, Ukraine, on the subject of children’s safety, Sept. 12, 2024.

Viktor Kovalchuk/Global Images/Ukraine/Getty


While the woman declined to comment to The Associated Press, people close to her say her initial reluctance was driven by distrust of the in-house watchdog and she has asked the body of member-states that oversees the ICC to launch an external probe. An ICC official with knowledge of the matter who spoke to AP on condition of anonymity confirmed that the request remains under consideration.

Those efforts were applauded by those close to the woman, who still works at the court.

“This wasn’t a one-time advance or an arm around the shoulder that could be subject to misinterpretation,” one of the people told AP, speaking on condition of anonymity to shield the woman’s identity. “It was a full-on, repeated pattern of conduct that was carried out over a long period of time.”

While the court’s watchdog could not determine wrongdoing, it nonetheless urged Khan in a memo to minimize contact with the woman to protect the rights of all involved and safeguard the court’s integrity.

Within days of the watchdog’s shelving of the case, the court’s work went on. Khan on May 20 sought arrest warrants against Netanyahu, his defense minister and three Hamas leaders on war crimes charges. A three-judge panel is now weighing that request.

U.S. President Joe Biden’s administration said it was blindsided by the move, with the president calling the prosecution “outrageous” for implying an equivalence between Israel and Hamas.


Biden rebukes ICC request for Netanyahu arrest warrant

02:33

In announcing the charges, Khan hinted that outside forces were waging a campaign to derail his investigation.

“I insist that all attempts to impede, intimidate or improperly influence the officials of this court must cease immediately,” Khan said, adding he wouldn’t hesitate to use his authority to investigate anyone suspected of obstructing justice.

AP pieced together details of the accusations through whistleblower documents shared with the court’s independent watchdog and interviews with eight ICC officials and individuals close to the woman. All spoke on the condition of anonymity due to the sensitive nature of the allegations or fear of retaliation.

Among the allegations told to AP is that Khan noticed the woman working at another department at ICC and moved her into his office, a transfer that included a pay bump. Their time together allegedly increased after a private dinner in London where Khan took the woman’s hand and complained about his marriage. She became a presence on official trips and meetings with dignitaries.

During one such trip, Khan allegedly asked the woman to rest with him on a hotel bed and then “sexually touched her,” according to the documents. Later, he came to her room at 3 a.m. and knocked on the door for 10 minutes.

Other allegedly nonconsensual behavior cited in the documents included locking the door of his office and sticking his hand in her pocket. He also allegedly asked her on several occasions to go on a vacation together.

Upon returning to ICC’s headquarters after one trip, she tearfully complained to two co-workers about Khan’s behavior and the anguish she felt for not standing up to a boss she once admired.

Those co-workers were shocked because Khan always seemed to show exemplary behavior around women and has been outspoken against gender-based crimes. They also weighed the accusations against the backdrop of well-publicized attempts by intelligence agents from Israel and elsewhere to penetrate the court, which created a work environment plagued by intrigue and mistrust.

But in the wake of the #MeToo movement, no powerful man is above scrutiny, and the co-workers complied with court workplace guidelines that encouraged the reporting of misconduct by senior officials.

After months of inaction and whispered rumors of a brewing scandal, an anonymous account on X called ICC_Leaks last week began bringing some of the allegations to light.

Israel’s allies in the U.S. Congress have also seized on the would-be scandal. Sen. Lindsey Graham is seeking records about whether the misconduct accusations played any role in Khan’s decision in May to cancel an aide’s planned visit to Israel and move ahead with the war crimes charges.

“Another cloud – a moral one – hangs over prosecutor Khan’s abrupt decision to abandon engagement with Israel and seek arrest warrants,” the South Carolina Republican wrote in a letter to the court’s oversight authority.

Khan, who is 54 and married with two children, said in a statement there was “no truth” to the accusations, and that in 30 years of scandal-free investigative work he always has stood with victims of sexual harassment and abuse.

Khan added that he would be willing, if asked, to cooperate with any inquiry, saying it is essential that any accusations “are thoroughly listened to, examined and subjected to a proper process.”

Without naming any entity directly, he noted that both he and the court have been the target in recent months of “a wide range of attacks and threats,” some also aimed at his wife and family. Khan’s office declined to provide specifics because the incidents are under investigation.

Under Khan, the ICC has become more assertive in combating crimes against humanity, war crimes and related atrocities. Along the way, it has added to a growing list of enemies.

Last September, following the opening of a probe into Russian atrocities in Ukraine, the court suffered a debilitating cyberattack that left staff unable to work for weeks. It also hired an intern who was later criminally charged in the U.S. with being a Russian spy.


U.S. announces war crime charges against 4 Russian soldiers for actions in Ukraine

14:38

Israel has also been waging its own influence campaign ever since the ICC recognized Palestine as a member and in 2015 opened a preliminary investigation into what the court referred to as “the situation in the State of Palestine.”

London’s The Guardian newspaper and several Israeli news outlets reported this summer that Israel’s intelligence agencies for the past decade have allegedly targeted senior ICC staff, including putting Khan’s predecessor under surveillance and showing up at her house with envelopes stuffed with cash to discredit her.

Netanyahu himself, in the days leading up to Khan’s announcement of war crimes charges, called on the world’s democracies “to use all the means at their disposal” to block the court from what he called an “outrage of historic proportions.”

The Israeli foreign ministry referred AP’s inquiries about the case to the Prime Minister’s office, which did not respond. The U.S. State Department declined to discuss the matter but said in a statement that it “takes any allegation of sexual harassment seriously, and we would expect the court to do the same.”

The Dutch foreign ministry and several lawmakers in the Netherlands have called for an investigation into whether the Israeli embassy has been conducting covert activities against the ICC.

Khan, a British international lawyer, had a long history defending some of the world’s most ruthless strongmen — including former Liberian President Charles Taylor and the son of the late Libyan dictator Muammar Qaddafi — before being elected in 2021 in a secret ballot to become chief prosecutor.

The Rome Statute that established the court took effect in 2002, with a mandate to prosecute war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide — but only when domestic courts fail to initiate their own investigations. Neither the U.S., Israel nor Russia are among the 124 member nations recognizing the court’s authority, although their citizens can be charged with crimes committed in countries that are ICC members.

Khan has assessed that the ICC does have jurisdiction to prosecute individuals over actions committed in the Palestinian territories, and to prosecute Palestinians in Israel, however, because the U.N. recognizes the State of Palestine as a signatory to the Rome Statute.

Washington welcomed Khan’s election, especially after he moved to “deprioritize” an investigation opened by his predecessor into abuses by U.S. military personnel in Afghanistan.

Khan also broadened the court’s focus, bringing criminal charges for the first time against individuals outside Africa. He charged Russian President Vladimir Putin for kidnapping children in Ukraine and opened an investigation into Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro for his crackdown on protesters.

“He is by far the most professional jurist the court has had in its short history,” said Kenneth Roth, founder and former executive director of Human Rights Watch. “He’s articulate, sophisticated with the media and has extensive courtroom experience working with the highest standards of evidence.”

But Khan’s reputation with the U.S. came crashing down when he announced he was seeking the arrest of Netanyahu and Israel’s defense minister for war crimes including starvation of civilians.

To insulate himself from attacks that he held an anti-Israel bias, Khan, a practicing Muslim whose father migrated to the U.K. from Pakistan, shared the evidence with a panel of experts including British human rights lawyer Amal Clooney, wife of actor George Clooney.

Although the 900-employee ICC has long had a “zero-tolerance” policy on sexual harassment, an outside review of the court’s inner-workings in 2020 found an unacceptable level of predatory behavior by male bosses, a lack of women in senior positions, and inadequate mechanisms for dealing with complaints and protecting whistleblowers.

“There is a general reluctance, if not extreme fear, among many staff to report any alleged act of misconduct or misbehavior” by a senior official, the review concluded. “The perception is that they are all immune.”

Although the ICC’s policies have been updated since the report, there’s no explicit ban on romantic relationships like there is in many American workplaces. And while elected officials such as Khan are expected to show “high moral character,” there’s no definition of “serious misconduct” that would warrant removal.

“International organizations like the ICC are some of the last places where men in positions of power treat the organization like their playgrounds,” said Sarah Martin, a gender equality expert who has consulted for several United Nations agencies. “There are so many complaints that don’t even get investigated because there’s a perception that senior officials protect each other.”

People close to Khan’s accuser say investigators from the court’s watchdog – known as the Independent Oversight Mechanism – showed up for an interview at her home on a Sunday and asked for intimate details about her relationship with Khan as her child listened. Without any emotional support and wary of the process, she decided not to file a complaint at that moment.

In the weeks since, she’s decided to go up the chain of command, reaching out to the Assembly of States Parties to the Rome Statute, which oversees the court and has the ultimate say about Khan’s future.

Paivi Kaukoranta, a Finnish diplomat currently serving as president of that body, did not comment specifically when asked if it had initiated a new investigation. But in a statement she asked people to respect the integrity and confidentiality of the process, “including any further possible steps as necessary.”



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Maine marking one year since worst mass shooting in its history

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Lewiston, Maine marks one year since gunman killed 18 in state’s worst shooting


Lewiston, Maine marks one year since gunman killed 18 in state’s worst shooting

01:48

Lewiston, Maine — With flags lowered across the state, Maine residents whose sense of safety was shattered last year by the deadliest mass shooting in the state’s history planned to mark the day Friday in ways big and small, including a planned memorial service.

The killings of 18 people by an Army reservist in Lewiston drove home the stark reality that no corner of the country is safe from gun violence, including a state where people often boast of the low crime rate.

The largest of the gatherings was expected at the city’s hockey arena, where there were to be moments of silence at the time of the shootings.

Community has emerged as an important component of the grieving process since the shootings, Elizabeth Seal said through a sign language interpreter at an event with victims and survivors last week. Seal’s husband, Joshua Seal, was killed in the shootings.

“Once justice is served, I feel maybe we can start that process of healing,” Seal said through the interpreter. “But in the meantime, we’re going to stay ‘Lewiston Strong.'”

Maine Shooting Anniversary
A woman visits a makeshift memorial outside Sparetime Bowling Alley, the site of a mass shooting, in this Oct. 28, 2023 file photo, in Lewiston, Maine.

Robert F. Bukaty / AP


Seal and dozens of other survivors and relatives of victims recently began the formal process of suing the U.S. Army for what they say was a failure to act to stop the 40-year-old reservist, Robert Card.

The shootings on Oct. 25, 2023, happened at a bowling alley and a cornhole tournament hosted by a bar and grill. Card died by suicide, and his body was found two days later.

Justin Juray, owner of the Just-In-Time Recreation bowling alley where the shooting began, said the venue would close for the day Friday to let staff be with their families. He said it had been a tough week as the day approached, and Friday would be particularly hard.

“We don’t need work to add to their stress,” he said. Juray and his wife, Samantha, reopened the bowling alley in May, six months after the shooting. Two staff members were among the eight people killed there.

All told, more than 130 people were present at the two sites, according to the state’s director of victim services. In addition to the 18 killed, there were 13 wounded by gunfire and 20 non-shooting injuries.

The gunman’s family and fellow Army reservists reported that he was suffering from a mental breakdown.

In the aftermath of the shooting, the Maine Legislature passed new gun laws that bolstered the state’s “yellow flag” statute, criminalized the transfer of guns to prohibited people and expanded funding for mental health crisis care.

Democratic Gov. Janet Mills said the healing isn’t over.

“As we continue down the long and difficult road to recovery, let us remind ourselves that we are not alone, that we are ‘Lewiston Strong,’ and that we will continue to heal, together,” she said.

“Lewiston Strong” took off in the days following the tragedy and continues to inspire, reports CBS Portland, Maine affiliate WGME-TV.

The Maine People’s Alliance has kept up its “Lewiston Strong” sign, a constant reminder that’s led to contemplation.

“What does it mean anyway and what comes next after you’ve declared yourself to be strong?” asked the alliance’s Carrie Jadud.

“How do we be strong for each other and for ourselves? But more importantly, how are we healing, healing ourselves, healing each other, healing as a community?” Jadud reflected.



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