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Transcript: Sen. Chris Van Hollen on “Face the Nation,” May 12, 2024
The following is a transcript of an interview with Sen. Chris Van Hollen, Democrat of Maryland, that aired on May 12, 2024.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we go now to Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen. Senator, the White House is continuing to send weapons to Israel. But as you’ve heard the Secretary of State say they’re narrowly tailoring this to withhold specific kinds of munitions. Does this policy and the administration’s explanation of it make sense to you?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Margaret, it’s good to be with you and Happy Mother’s Day. And let me just say that, you know, Senator Cotton totally misrepresented the position of President Biden and the Biden administration. So I think the President is absolutely right to withhold these big, big bombs that could be used in Rafah. Remember, the president of the United States warned Prime Minister Netanyahu repeatedly that if there was an all out invasion in Rafah that the United States would make policy changes and Prime Minister Netanyahu has repeatedly ignored the President of the United States, ignored the President’s efforts to try to reduce civilian casualties, ignored our efforts to try to get more humanitarian assistance into Gaza and ignored the priority of trying to bring back the hostages. So yes, I support the President’s actions here. I thought that were very important to take.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You though, were part of this national security memorandum that we talked about with the Secretary, you help tailor it and you said after it came out, that the expertise and analysis of the State Department has been swept aside to facilitate a predetermined policy outcome based on political convenience. Are you saying that Secretary- the Secretary of State’s inability to conclude anything in this report is a political choice, not based on fact?
SEN. VAN HOLLEN: Well, I believe the facts and the law show what a lot of independent groups that the administration often relies on shows. So Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Oxfam, an independent task force that was established to review the facts and the law, all concluded that you look at some of these incidents these clearly were violations of international humanitarian law. So while I appreciate the fact that as Secretary Blinken said, the administration determined that it was reasonable to conclude that violations of international law had- had happened. I think there’s enough on the books to be able to point to specific cases and make specific determinations. And on that score, the administration did duck the hard questions.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, specifically, do you fear that this report helped essentially give political cover to Prime Minister Netanyahu to continue to do what he’s doing?
SEN. VAN HOLLEN: Well, I fear that by not providing an unvarnished accounting of the facts and the law, we have essentially stated that what is happening in Gaza- so for example, with respect to the delivery of humanitarian assistance, and the total restriction of delivery of humanitarian assistance since the beginning of the war, by not calling that out flatly and saying that there have been arbitrary restrictions put on it, I fear that we have set a very, very low bar. A very low standard for what’s acceptable, and I think that will come back to haunt us. So yes, Margaret, I worry that we didn’t call out very clearly, the fact that those restrictions on humanitarian assistance, which is leading to hundreds of thousands of people on the verge of starvation, over 25 people already starve to death, including kids. I do worry that that has essentially allowed a low bar to go without pointing it out very clearly.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But this week, the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Mark Milley said, “before we get self righteous about what Israel is doing”, we shouldn’t forget the US killed a lot of innocent people in Iraq, in Syria. He said the US killed 12,000 Innocent French civilians, bombed Hiroshima, Nagasaki, 69 Japanese cities. What do you make of statements like that? Because Prime Minister Netanyahu says something very similar.
SEN. VAN HOLLEN: Well, Margaret, there’s no doubt that- excuse me, that the United States has not been perfect- far from perfect. But since World War Two, we’ve adopted many more measures to try to restrict civilian harm and we try to improve it all the time. And of course, after World War Two, the world adopted the fourth article of the Geneva Conventions which is designed specifically to protect civilians at war. So, you know, Milley can talk about the things that happened in World War Two, but the world tried to learn some of the lessons after World War Two.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Okay. We’re gonna take a break and come back and finish this conversation, Senator.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And welcome back to Face the Nation. We return now to our conversation with Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen. Senator, we’ve been talking about the Biden administration. But I want to refer to what’s happening in our own domestic politics right now, related to Gaza. Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said on another network this week that the failed diplomacy of her husband’s administration was a the best missed opportunity for a Palestinian state. She’s said that before. But she said student protesters don’t know very much about the history of the Middle East or, frankly, about history in many areas of the world, including in our own country. What do you make of the characterization and the concerns right now, among so many young voters?
SEN. VAN HOLLEN: Well, I thought, Margaret, that Secretary Clinton’s comments, in that regard, were quite dismissive of students’ concerns about the awful humanitarian crisis and high civilian death toll in Gaza. And I should point out that we should be held to keep two ideas in our head at the same time. One is the right of Americans to peacefully protest, but also the need to make sure that students feel safe on campus. And of course, we also need to make sure that we stamp out antisemitism and hate wherever we see it. But I believe that the great majority of the students are protesting, are following very closely what’s happening in Gaza. They see what’s a very high civilian death toll. And so we can certainly revisit history and past negotiations. But I believe that the overwhelming majority of the students, not all and there are some, there are some very bad elements that are involved, as well as on the counter protests side. But I believe that the students do understand what’s happening in Gaza with respect to the civilian casualties.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Van Hollen, thank you very much for your insight today and your reaction. And we’ll be back with more Face the Nation–
SEN. VAN HOLLEN: — Thank you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: — and a very special Mother’s Day story.
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Vladimir Kara-Murza, a fierce critic of Vladimir Putin who was sentenced to 25 years in a Russian prison, was on his way to freedom after he was released during a prisoner swap when an FSB agent shared ominous parting advice.
“‘Be careful about what you eat. You know how these things happen,'” Kara-Murza said he was told.
Kara-Murza had already survived two poisonings — first in 2015 and then again in 2017. He was then arrested in 2022 and tried for treason last year after denouncing Putin’s war on Ukraine.
Kara-Murza knew the risks that come with speaking out against Putin, but he did it anyway.
“There are causes larger than ourselves. And to me, the cause of a free, peaceful, civilized and democratic Russia is certainly much larger than I could ever be,” he said.
Surviving poisonings
Kara-Murza had been high on Putin’s list since 2012, when he worked with the late Sen. John McCain on the so-called Magnitsky Act, a U.S. law named for a man murdered by prison guards. The Magnitsky Act allows for the seizure of the overseas assets of foreign officials who abuse human rights, and more than 60 people have been sanctioned.
60 Minutes
Kara-Murza says Kremlin assassins poisoned him in 2015 because of his work on the Magnitsky Act.
He was in a coma for about a month and suffered from multiple organ failure. Doctors in Moscow told his wife he had about a 5% chance of survival. As Kara-Murza was recovering, he had to learn how to walk and eat again.
“It’s amazing how fast the human body just loses everything, just loses all the strength and you just have to start anew,” he said.
Two years later, in 2017, he was poisoned again. This time, he went to the U.S., where his wife and three children live, to recover. Kara-Murza is a U.S. permanent resident.
But once he recovered, he returned to Russia.
“How could I not go back to Russia? I am a Russian politician. A politician has to be in their own country,” Kara-Murza said. “How could I call on my fellow citizens and my fellow Russians to stand up and oppose this dictatorship if I myself was too scared to do it? How is that possible?”
Kara-Murza continues speaking out as Putin cracks down
Kara-Murza says all of Putin’s opponents are either in exile, in prison, or dead.
Shortly after Russia launched its invasion of Ukraine in 2022, lawmakers passed a law imposing a 15-year prison sentence for those who criticize the war.
“We tried to warn the world. We tried to shout,” Kara-Murza said. “We tried to get the message out that this regime is dangerous, that this man is dangerous.”
After his treason conviction last year, Kara-Murza was hit with the longest sentence ever for a political prisoner. The judge in the case had been among the first Russian officials sanctioned under the Magnitsky Act.
Kara-Murza thought it was a “job well done” when he heard his sentence.
“I think that 25-year sentence was, frankly, a recognition that what we did over all those years mattered, that the Magnitsky Act mattered, that public opposition to the war in Ukraine mattered,” he said. “Yes, it means it was a job well done.”
Life behind bars and being freed
Kara-Murza spent two-and-a-half years imprisoned. He was sent to Siberia, and put in solitary confinement. He says he was only able to call his wife once and only allowed to speak with his children twice.
“And it was a 15-minute call, so five minutes per child,” he said. “And as my wife later told me, she was standing there with a stopwatch to make sure that each of our kids doesn’t get more than five minutes so that everybody could have an opportunity to speak with dad.”
He thought he would never get out, so he views what happened on Aug. 1 as a miracle.
“A large group of officers burst into my cell. I have no idea what’s happening. It’s the middle of the night. It’s dark,” Kara-Murza said. “And they tell me I have 10 minutes to get up and get ready. And at this moment, I’m absolutely certain that I’m gonna be led out and be executed.”
Instead, he was one of eight Russian dissidents released, along with several Germans and three Americans, in exchange for eight Russian criminals and spies. It was the largest prisoner exchange since the Cold War. President Biden’s administration, along with officials in several other countries, had spent months negotiating the prisoner swap.
After he stepped off a plane in Turkey, a diplomat from the American embassy came over and handed Kara-Murza a phone. President Biden was on the line, along with Kara-Murza’s family. They were calling from the Oval Office.
“It felt surreal, it felt more emotional than I had ever felt at any point in my life,” Kara-Murza said.
Continuing to speak out against Putin
60 Minutes correspondent Scott Pelley asked Kara-Murza if he thinks Putin will try to kill him.
“We know what it entails to be in opposition to Vladimir Putin,” Kara-Murza said. “He’s not just a dictator. He’s not just an authoritarian leader. He’s not just a strongman. He is a murderer. That man is a murderer.”
Kara-Murza, who remains in the U.S. with his family, shared his hopes that ordinary Russians standing up to Putin are remembered.
“I hope that when people in the West, that when people in the United States, when people in the free world at large think about Russia, they will remember not only the aggressors and the war criminals who are sitting in the Kremlin, but also those who are standing up to them,” he said. “Because we are Russians too.”
