CBS News
Mother a driving force as jury finds answers to Florida man’s 2000 disappearance
This story previously aired on June 20, 2020. It was updated on Aug. 3, 2024.
Produced by Josh Gelman and Jaime Hellman
Mike Williams, a successful 31-year-old real estate appraiser, left home to go duck hunting on Lake Seminole in Florida on Dec. 16, 2000. His wife Denise said he set out early and promised to be back by noon so they could celebrate their sixth wedding anniversary that evening. When he didn’t return home, Denise started calling around looking for him. Six hours later, a massive search was underway.
Law enforcement, friends and family set out to find Williams, says Jennifer Portman, who covered the story for the Tallahassee Democrat and was a “48 Hours” consultant.
“They found the boat, his truck – that was all there,” Portman tells “48 Hours” correspondent Richard Schlesinger.
Williams was nowhere to be found.
Tallahassee Democrat
The search was called off after 44 days. Williams was listed as “still missing.” Some wondered if he’d just run off. Then another explanation was offered: he was snatched by an alligator.
Scott Dungey, one of Williams’ best friends, had gone up in a helicopter as part of the search. “And, you know, one of the things that I noticed – there were no less than 15 to 20 very large alligators swimming all around this area.”
“People are attacked by alligators,” says Portman. “Little dogs are eaten by alligators. But you never hear of someone who’s just vanished, eaten by – whole – by an alligator.”
Six months after he went missing, a local fisherman found a pair of waders in Lake Seminole. And two days later, Williams’ fishing jacket, hunting license and a flashlight were found at the same spot.
Williams’ mother, Cheryl Williams, never believed her son was eaten by alligators or died by accident. Her mother’s intuition told her that something bad had happened and she was determined not to give up until someone took her seriously. She compiled 27 pages of single-spaced notes and evidence and wrote the governor of Florida every day for nine years. She contacted wildlife experts who told her that alligators do not feed in cold winter months.
“She was absolutely possessed with finding this out, what had happened to Mike,” says Patti Ketcham, the wife of Williams’ boss and friend, Clay Ketcham. “He didn’t just fall out of the boat. This wasn’t just a hunting accident.”
Now, the answers Cheryl Williams has waited 18 years for — and a jury decides: was it murder?
VANISHED
You’ve got to really love duck hunting to love Lake Seminole. It’s shallow, it’s swampy, and it’s popular with the local alligators. Mike Williams really did love duck hunting. And people say that’s why he came here alone, well before dawn on Dec. 16, 2000.
His wife said the plan was that Mike would be back home in time to celebrate his wedding anniversary.
But 12 hours later, after his wife reported him missing, Lake Seminole would be swarming with rescuers searching for Mike Williams on land, on the water and in the air.
Richard Schlesinger [looking at a map]: Can you show me the area that you guys searched in?
Alton Ranew | Florida Fish and Wildlife Officer: Basically this area, from here to there. About 5 acres.
Alton Ranew and David Arnette were among the first law enforcement officers to get a call about a missing duck hunter.
David Arnette | Florida Fish and Wildlife Officer: What we thought had happened is that he possibly fell out of the boat or capsized.
Richard Schlesinger: Is it unusual for people to fall out of boats while they’re huntin’ for ducks?
Alton Ranew: It’s not unusual. It happens, um, quite often out here, as far as they might hit a stump and throw ’em out.
Early the next morning, there was a break. Mike’s boat was found. On board were some decoys and his shotgun, but no sign of Mike himself.
Alton Ranew: We done a grid search … very slow, meticulous grid search, back and forth over the search area.
State Attorney’s Office
And what began as a search and rescue soon turned into a search for a body.
Alton Ranew: We stayed with that grid until we covered this whole area.
Cadaver dogs were brought in, while teams scoured the murky bottom of Lake Seminole in a gruesome search for Mike’s body that was high intensity and low tech.
Richard Schlesinger [on an airboat, holding a PVC pipe pole]: This is the tool of your trade, right?
Alton Ranew: That was actually one of the poles.
Richard Schlesinger: And all you do is put it in the water and see if you feel anything.
Alton Ranew: If it’s a log, it’s kind of a thump, kind of a hard thump, if it would’ve been … a body, you hit it, it’s kinda like a pillow.
Richard Schlesinger: Did you feel something ever on the bottom that felt like a body?
Alton Ranew: Never. Never.
Russell Grace
Williams vanished one day before his sixth wedding anniversary. He met his wife Denise at North Florida Christian High School. He was a football player; she was a cheerleader. He was president of the student council; she was the secretary.
Richard Schlesinger: How’d they seem together?
Scott Dungey: Great couple.
Scott Dungey met Mike in high school. He and his wife Anessa were among Mike’s best friends.
Scott Dungey: If you knew Mike, he’s the kind of person that uh, is gonna do anything and everything for you. So Denise, you know, found a gem.
They both graduated from Florida State University. Denise became an accountant for the state; Mike became a real estate appraiser, working for Clay Ketcham.
Clay Ketcham: This kid was straight as an arrow. He really, truly was.
Clay and his wife Patti got to know Mike well.
Clay Ketcham: He was an unbelievable worker. It was not uncommon for him to do 15-hour days. I mean, he would be in there early, work until 1:00 or 2:00 in the mornin’ and then be right back. He had incredible energy.
Before long, Mike’s career took off. And that’s when he married Denise.
Clay Ketcham: He loved his wife. He even would leave the office and go pump her gas.
Richard Schlesinger: I’m sorry, go pump her gas?
Clay Ketcham: Yes. She would call him and say [laughs], “Mike, I need gas.” And Mike would run over there, pump her gas and run back. We all said we wanted to be married to Mike [laughs].
Just before Mother’s Day in 1999, Denise gave birth to the couple’s daughter. And by chance, a local Tallahassee TV station, WCTV, was at the hospital:
DENISE WILLIAMS : We’re just totally overwhelmed. She was due Tuesday and she would have made me wait a whole ‘nother year for Mother’s Day.
MIKE WILLIAMS: It was unbelievable. I have a whole new respect for my wife and women in general and what they go through to bring a, a new child, new life into the world.
Nineteen months after he became a father, Mike was missing. And the longer the search lasted on Lake Seminole, the harder it was on the searchers, who were afraid of what they might find.
One of Mike’s oldest friends, Brian Winchester, was out there looking for him from the start. And it was Brian who discovered Mike’s empty boat.
Brett Ketcham: Brian decided that we didn’t want to be there when Mike’s body was pulled up.
Brett Ketcham was with Brian during the search.
Brett Ketcham: So we would get in a car and drive to a gas station and go get a Coke. And it was very emotional trips. I mean, it was, you know, crying. And it was tough.
The search was called off after 44 days. Rescuers could find no trace of Mike Williams. He was listed officially as “still missing” and some people wondered if he had just run off.
David Arnette: Maybe he just abandoned his family or somethin’ like that. That — that was the strongest scenario of everything that we had.
Richard Schlesinger: Do you believe that? I mean, did you think that was possible?
David Arnette: I thought that was a possibility.
Richard Schlesinger: What did you think?
Patti Ketcham: We knew Mike had not run off. I mean, he loved his family and he adored his daughter. Adored her. So Mike did not run off. This was not some elaborate ruse.
Soon there was another explanation offered for why Mike’s body could not be found: that he had been snatched by an alligator.
Scott Dungey: Alligators — they don’t eat you right then. And this is morbid to talk about, but they go stuff you somewhere for six months and — and then come back later.
One of the rescue teams agreed, writing, “the alligators have dismembered and have stored the remains in a location that we would not be able to find.”
But there was at least one person who had serious doubts about that theory — Mike’s mother Cheryl.
Patti Ketcham: She pretty early on … believed that there was more to this. And that he was not in Lake Seminole. I think she just thought something — something’s not right here.
A MOTHER’S INTUITION
Six months after Mike Williams disappeared investigators had no new leads and no real hope of finding him. And then, what could be a break bubbled up from the muck of Lake Seminole.
Alton Ranew [on an airboat]: That pole is markin’ a spot where the waders had popped up.
A local fisherman found a pair of waders — waterproof pants with attached boots — which were believed to have belonged to Williams.
Richard Schlesinger [on an airboat]: Did it makes sense to you that they popped up here? I mean …you had searched that area, right?
Alton Ranew: We had searched it many times.
Richard Schlesinger Well?
Alton Ranew: Very well.
Then, two days after that, Mike’s fishing jacket and his hunting license were found at the same spot, along with a flashlight.
But Williams was still missing. His wife Denise was raising their 2-year-old daughter, alone.
Clay Ketcham: Denise was a doting mother. … the pride and joy of her life.
But Scott Dungey says now that Denise was a single mom, money was getting tight.
Scott Dungey: I was helping her with some of the items that needed to be sold and to generate some cash until the insurance money came.
And there was a lot of insurance money involved. Williams had three policies worth more than $1.75 million.
Patti Ketcham: Mike wanted to make sure his family was taken care of because Mike hunted and fished and did some pretty high risk activity … And Clay really encouraged him to load up.
With her expenses reportedly mounting, Denise went after the insurance money quickly.
Jennifer Portman: While the search, itself, is still going on, while he is still actively missing, they’re still actively searching for him — she is going and filing a claim against his life insurance.
Jennifer Portman has covered this case for the Tallahassee Democrat and is a “48 Hours” consultant.
Jennifer Portman: She was really ready to accept the fact that he was missing and presumed dead very early on.
But the State of Florida was not. According to Florida law, since there was no proof Williams had died, he would not be declared dead for five years. Denise did not want to wait that long to collect on Mike’s life insurance.
Richard Schlesinger: And how much time did it take in this case?
Jennifer Portman: It took six months. It was very fast– abnormally fast.
That’s because Denise’s attorney argued to a judge that the waders, the vest and the hunting license were proof enough that Williams was dead. The judge agreed and issued a death certificate. Cause of death: “Accidental drowning while duck hunting on Lake Seminole — body has not yet been recovered.”
Jennifer Portman: Based on that and that alone was what got him declared dead.
Richard Schlesinger: A pair of waders and a fishing license and some other stuff.
Jennifer Portman: Yep. Yep. Yeah. Exactly.
The case of the missing hunter seemed closed and was soon forgotten by almost everyone. But not by Mike’s mother Cheryl Williams.
Richard Schlesinger: Did she believe that her son drowned in Lake Seminole?
Jennifer Portman: She never, ever believed that her son was in the lake.
Richard Schlesinger: Not from day one?
Jennifer Portman: Not from day one.
Richard Schlesinger: What did she think had happened to him?”
Jennifer Portman: She didn’t know. All she knew … was that her son was not in that lake. She just knew it, knew it like a mom knows something just deep inside of her. And she was absolutely committed to finding out what happened to him.
Cheryl caught the attention of the local news:
CHERYL WILLIAMS [WCTV-TV REPORT]: It’s never out of my head. “Where is this child?” … He may be dead, but he’s not in that lake. And if somebody did hurt my child, I want ’em found and I want ’em punished.
Patti Ketcham: I was still, “This is so sad that Cheryl can’t accept the fact that Mike in all likelihood, has drowned” … But, this is her child. She’s gonna hold out that hope.
Jennifer Portman: Cheryl … started keeping notes of everything, copious notes of all of the … you know, strange things that were going on.
She eventually filled 27 single-spaced pages with lots of unanswered questions like, what made the waders float after 6 ½ months under water? Her notes ended with a plea to anyone who would listen: “Please help me find my son.”
Jennifer Portman: She was basically … just trying to compile all of the evidence that she could find and trying to get it in front of someone who would listen to her.
Richard Schlesinger: Well did Denise help her?
Jennifer Portman: Oh no. Denise completely cut her off.
Clay Ketcham: Denise was adamant, no investigation.
Richard Schlesinger: She threatened to withhold Cheryl’s granddaughter from her?
Clay Ketcham: Correct … She said, “If you continue to press for this investigation, you will never see your granddaughter again.”
Richard Schlesinger: So what did she do?”
Patti Ketcham: She took the energy she would’ve spent lovin’ on that child and tried to find her daddy.
Cheryl pressed on and started poking holes in the official version of what happened to her son.
For years after Mike Williams disappeared there was a theory that the reason his body was never found was that he had been eaten by alligators. It turns out, there’s a problem with that theory.
Cheryl contacted Matthew Aresco, an alligator expert. Florida has a few of them. In his response, he explained that alligators do not feed in the cold winter months.
MATT ARESCO [WCTV-TV REPORT]: Cold weather, um, causes water temperatures to drop so alligators don’t feed in the winter time.
What’s more, Aresco said that when alligators kill there is always forensic evidence left behind. And he said attributing Mike’s disappearance to an alligator attack “may be a convenient explanation for the authorities”… but was “virtually impossible.”
AP Photo
Jennifer Portman: We’re in north Florida. There are a lot of alligators. I will give you that. But … It is winter. Alligators do not eat human beings without leaving a trace in the middle of December when it’s cold. It just doesn’t happen.
EVIDENCE OF A CRIME?
Jennifer Portman | Tallahassee Democrat reporter: If not for Cheryl Williams, there’s no way that we would know where Mike Williams was or anything that ever happened to him. …She was the driving force.
Cheryl Williams knew — because an expert told her — that her son was not eaten by an alligator. But she did not know much else about how he vanished.
WCTV-TV
Jennifer Portman: One of the things that has been so difficult about this case is that there was an absolute lack of physical evidence. You didn’t have a body. …You didn’t have any of these things that maybe could point you towards something.
But Cheryl had something: those 27 pages of detailed notes. In 2004, four years after Mike disappeared, Cheryl’s campaign finally caught the attention of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement [FDLE]. Investigators met with her and then launched a multi-agency investigation.
Richard Schlesinger: When did you first begin thinking this was a crime?
Derrick Wester: Probably the first night we talked to Miss Cheryl.
At the time, Derrick Wester was with the Jackson County Sheriff’s Office. He was part of the investigation.
Derrick Wester: She had it all wrote down. …And then as she’s relayin’ this story, all these inconsistencies start adding up.
Richard Schlesinger: Do you remember what some of those inconsistencies were?
Derrick Wester: The insurance…
It was Mike’s three life insurance policies that caught their attention – particularly, the last one he bought not long before he disappeared worth $1 million.
Richard Schlesinger How did Mike Williams end up with that million-dollar life insurance policy? Who sold it to him?
Jennifer Portman: Brian Winchester sold him the million-dollar life insurance policy … about six months before he went missing.
Brian Winchester was an insurance agent. He had been Mike’s best friend since high school, where, like Mike, he met his future wife, Kathy Aldredge. And from then on, the two couples were inseparable.
Scott Dungey: They did literally everything together. They went out to dinner together, they bought houses at the same time.
Annessa Dungey | Friend of Mike Williams: They got married at the same time, pretty much had babies at the same time.
Scott Dungey: They were very close.
Richard Schlesinger: Brian Winchester was in the insurance business.
Jennifer Portman: He was.
Richard Schlesinger: So it’s not that odd that he would sell his friend an insurance policy. Is it?
Jennifer Portman: No. It’s not. I mean, just the timing of it, in retrospect, looks a little weird.
That wasn’t the only thing that started to look weird. Those waders that popped up in Lake Seminole surfaced just as Denise Williams needed proof that her husband was dead in order to get the insurance money.
Richard Schlesinger: How many days before the court hearing these waders popped up?
Jennifer Portman: Less than a month. I mean, it was really close.
They had supposedly been submerged in the lake for six months.
Alton Ranew | Florida Fish and Wildlife Officer: These waders was — in very good shape. They were also not slimy.
Richard Schlesinger: And what did that mean?
Alton Ranew: That they had not been in the water very long.
And there was something about that flashlight they also found: it still worked.
Scott Dungey: I went to turn it on thinking there’s no way it’s gonna turn on, and lo and behold, it worked [laughs]. And so I was like, “Man, I need to get me one of these.”
Richard Schlesinger: So you looked at that stuff and you thought to yourself what?
Derrick Wester: Planted.
Richard Schlesinger: It was planted?
Derrick Wester: Uh-huh [affirms].
No one could say for sure who planted it but, as time passed, Denise Williams and Brian Winchester started attracting attention and some suspicion, because years after Mike disappeared, Winchester divorced his wife Kathy. He began dating Denise. And then he married her.
Patti Ketcham | Friend of Mike Williams: We went to the wedding.
Richard Schlesinger: Was she a suspect in your mind at that point?
Patti Ketcham: I think in mine, I was — yes. …The minister at some point said, “I’ve counseled with this couple and … they have no secrets I don’t know.” And Clay and I both went — [nudges her husband].
Clay Ketcham | Friend and employee of Mike Williams: We kind of nudged each other like, “Well, there might be this one little secret you don’t know.
Patti Ketcham: Just a few.
Jennifer Portman: All these things start becoming, like, clear that — now, we’ve got the insurance. Now, we’ve got the waders. …We’ve got the alligator theory being busted by the experts. So as they’re building their case, you know, they talk to people. They start getting somewhere.
One of the first people investigators talked to was Denise Williams.
Derrick Wester: There’s no emotion. There’s no softenin’ up. There — there’s nothin’. I mean, she’s just matter-of-fact and cold.
But Brian Winchester had much more to say. He offered detectives an alibi for the morning Mike Williams went missing. He said he was 60 miles away from the lake — in bed.
Derrick Wester: Brian tells us that – he was goin’ huntin’ with his father-in-law and overslept.
Richard Schlesinger: You know for a fact that Brian was not telling you the truth then?
Derrick Wester: Uh-huh (affirms).
Winchester could not have known it, but detectives already had a witness who said he saw Brian that morning at Lake Seminole.
Derrick Wester: I know the — the man personally. I mean, I’ve known — I’ve known him all my life. And — I composed the lineup. And I took it to him. … Joel says, “Well, he wasn’t smilin’ like that, but that’s him.” And he pointed to Brian Winchester.
State Attorney’s Office
Richard Schlesinger: And he had seen that same man, he said, when?
Derrick Wester: That morning.
There was one more thing Winchester didn’t know: police were talking to his ex-wife. And she told them Denise and Brian might have been having an affair for years before Mike disappeared.
Derrick Wester: There was definitely a suspicion that him and her were havin’ an affair well before that December.
Richard Schlesinger: So that Brian and Denise were having an affair.
Derrick Wester: Yes.
Richard Schlesinger: While Denise was still married to Mike?
Derrick Wester: Yes.
The plot was sure thickening, but investigators still weren’t sure what the full story was. After two years, the FDLE hit a wall. But Cheryl Williams, who had been fighting since the day her son disappeared, was not giving up.
CHERYL WILLIAMS [WCTV-TV REPORT]: And it’s horrible not knowing what happened to him.
Jennifer Portman: She was very, very, very frustrated with FDLE and felt that they were not doing their job. They weren’t trying.
Tallahassee Democrat
Patti Ketcham: So she picketed [laughs]. You know, she– she would have signs made and walk up and down in front of the church.
Scott Dungey: Every year, she would have — billboards put up around town.
Patti Ketchum: It showed a picture of Mike and missing and if you have any — information, who’s to contact.
Richard Schlesinger: And she went after the governor?
Jennifer Portman: She wrote the governor a letter every day for nine years.
Richard Schlesinger: And you mean, literally, she writes to the governor every single day?
Jennifer Portman: Literally.
In fact, the governor received 1472 letters — that we know of.
Richard Schlesinger: Well, what did people make of that behavior?
Scott Dungey: You know, candidly, I thought it was crazy.
Richard Schlesinger: Crazy?
Scott Dungey: Right. And I’m ashamed to say that.
If people thought she was crazy, Cheryl didn’t seem to care.
Clay Ketcham: Her suspicion was always with Brian and Denise. More so with Denise.
Jennifer Portman: The two people who were considered most likely suspects were together. And unless one of them turned on the other, you were never gonna find out what happened here.
Richard Schlesinger: Did you think this case would get broken?
Derrick Wester: Not until I found out that they were havin’ — marital problems. …They turned on each other like rats in a sack.
A BREAK IN THE CASE
CHERYL WILLIAMS [WCTV-TV REPORT]: Until God tells me in my heart that that child is dead, I cannot give up looking for him.
As the years dragged on, it looked like the mystery of what happened to Mike Williams might never be solved.
Jennifer Portman: I mean, I would joke around the newsroom that, you know, they’d have to drag me out of the old lady reporter nursing home when they finally found Mike Williams. …I never thought that … we would ever know anything about what happened to him.
If Brian and Denise knew anything about Mike’s disappearance, they weren’t talking and no one could make them. By Florida law, as long as they stayed married, neither could be forced to testify against the other.
Jennifer Portman: With Brian and Denise being married … how were you ever gonna get the truth because one is not gonna turn on the other.”
Scott Dungey/Russell Grace
But behind the scenes, Denise and Brian’s marriage was disintegrating. In 2012, after seven years, they decided to separate.
Jennifer Portman: He is, you know … self-describes as being a sex addict. …He’s trying to please her by going to therapy, by getting counseling … it’s like he’s jumping through all these hoops trying to do all these things to get her back, and she’s not kind of accepting them.
Richard Schlesinger: Did he seem under stress? Did he seem like a different guy back then?
Annessa Dungey: He did to me.
Scott Dungey: He aged quickly.
Annessa Dungey: He did. He was also very adamant that he … absolutely did not want to be divorced, that he was miserable without her.
After four more years of trying to patch things up, Brian snapped.
Jennifer Portman: One morning, Denise gets in her car … she’s driving to work. And she senses something in the back. And Brian Winchester has hidden in the back of her car and is coming over the seat and has got a gun.
Richard Schlesinger: He’s got a gun?
Jennifer Portman: He’s got a gun … He had a gun. He had a tarp … the idea was that … he was gonna kill her. …He is … completely unhinged.
Richard Schlesinger: But she managed to talk him down?
Jennifer Portman: She manages to talk him down.
Denise reported her kidnapping to the Leon County Sheriff’s Office:
IN THE INTERROGATION ROOM:
DENISE WILLIAMS: He’s screaming and I’m just like shaking. And he’s telling me to stop crying that people are going to notice.
DENISE WILLIAMS: I was like, “are you planning on, y’know ending both of our lives today?” “Well, mine. I’m planning on mine.” And then he would say “I want to kill my – ” he must have said a million times “I want to kill myself.”
Brian Winchester was soon arrested and charged with the kidnapping and aggravated assault of his wife.
Leon County Sheriff’s Office
IN THE INTERROGATION ROOM:
DENISE WILLIAMS: I was just kind of agreeing with whatever he was saying. And I was like, “I know that you love me…”
Police quickly realized that the rift in Denise and Brian’s marriage presented an opportunity.
Jennifer Portman: Word travels fast in law enforcement circles … And they recognized it for what it was. This was a huge break in the Mike Williams case.
A tag team of detectives arrived to see what they could get out of Denise — to see if she would now flip on her estranged husband and talk about his involvement in Mike William’s disappearance.
Tallahassee Detective David McCranie tried:
DET. DAVID MCCRANIE: I know Denise, he did it and you know exactly what I’m talking about … and he was gonna do it again.
DET. DAVID MCCRANIE: He wasn’t gonna kill himself Denise, he was gonna kill you so that you couldn’t talk about him later. That is the truth.
McCranie turned up the heat:
DET. DAVID MCCRANIE: Fifteen years ago he walked in and told that you he had done something. Didn’t he?
DENISE WILLIAMS: No.
DET. DAVID MCCRANIE: Denise.
DENISE WILLIAMS: No.
DET. DAVID MCCRANIE: You have got … he is — this is not going away. OK? He’s going to kill you.
But Denise did not budge. So Special Agent Mike Devaney came in. He’d been working the Williams case for years:
SPECIAL AGENT MIKE DEVANEY: Do you think he’s responsible for Mike’s disappearance?
DENISE WILLIAMS: I do not and I never have, I would have never married him if I thought that … I mean in my mind and in my heart, no.
Richard Schlesinger: She wasn’t giving up anything.
Jennifer Portman: She was giving up absolutely nothing.
SPECIAL AGENT MIKE DEVANEY: Where do you think Mike’s buried at?
DENISE WILLIAMS: Oh, I – I have no idea.
SPECIAL AGENT MIKE DEVANEY: Any speculation on that?
DENISE WILLIAMS: On where he’s buried?
SPECIAL AGENT MIKE DEVANEY: Buried.
DENISE WILLIAMS: I mean I believe…
SPECIAL AGENT MIKE DEVANEY: You don’t really believe he — he died at — on the lake.
DENISE WILLIAMS: I do.
SPECIAL AGENT MIKE DEVANEY: Why?
DENISE WILLIAMS: I just — I just always have. That’s what I believe.
Jennifer Portman: That was her story and sticking to it.
That left Brian as the only possible source of information in the Williams case. He was facing a long stretch in prison for the kidnapping. But there was no word about what – if anything – he would say about Mike’s disappearance.
Sixteen months later, Brian pleaded guilty to kidnapping and assaulting Denise and appeared in court for his sentencing.
Tim Jansen is Brian Winchester’s lawyer.
Tim Jansen: We had a plea. And we weren’t sure what the government was gonna ask for.
We had indicated we want 15 …The State gets up and asks for 45.
TIM JANSEN [in court]: My client would like to address the courtroom.
BRIAN WINCHESTER [in court]: Never ever did I have any intentions of harming Denise, nor would I. Nonetheless I do know that she was hurt by my actions and again I am truly sorry.
Richard Schlesinger: Denise showed up at the sentencing. What was she like there, what did she want?
Jennifer Portman: She wanted him to go to prison for the rest of his life.
DENISE WILLIAMS [in court]: I start each day, with the memory of him jumping out of the back. And I end each day feeling the gun shoved in my ribs when I turn on my right side trying to sleep [cries].
Jennifer Portman: She was scared. She was compelling.
DENISE WILLIAMS [in court]: He will finish what he has started no matter what age he is when he is released …
Jennifer Portman: I think most people in the courtroom were pretty stunned by it. It was pretty powerful.
WCTV-TV
DENISE WILLIAMS [in court]: I am asking you to sentence him to life in prison for the crimes he has committed. It comes down to my life or his and I am asking you please, choose mine. Thank you.
For kidnapping Denise, Brian was sentenced to 20 years behind bars.
Clay Ketcham: He was shackled at the waist and the ankles and when they shuffled him off to prison, we felt so defeated. … Because we said, “There’ll never be an answer to our friend Mike. Never an answer. We won’t know.”
Richard Schlesinger: Well, you were wrong.
Clay Ketcham: We were wrong … they had found Mike’s body.
“HE WAS MURDERED”
Jennifer Portman: This was so huge. …It still is really pretty stunning.
Just one day after Brian Winchester was sentenced for kidnapping Denise Williams, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement held a news conference and the news really was huge.
FDLE PRESS CONFERENCE: Standing here now, I can tell you that we know what happened to Mike Williams. He was murdered.
They know that because, sometime before he was sentenced for kidnapping, Brian Winchester cracked and confessed in these audio recordings:
BRIAN WINCHESTER CONFESSION: I went and met Mike at a gas station…. I followed him to the lake … We launched the boat. It was just like a hunting trip was supposed to be.
Winchester had cut a deal with prosecutors. In exchange for his confession, he would not be charged with murder, even though he admitted killing his best friend:
BRIAN WINCHESTER CONFESSION: I got him to stand up and I pushed him into the water. …and he was in a panic, obviously. I was in a panic … I didn’t know what to do and I ended up shooting him … (cries).
INVESTIGATOR: Where did you shoot him?
BRIAN WINCHESTER: In the head.
Tim Jansen: The agreement that we drafted up said that anything he said that day could not be used against him.
Winchester gave prosecutors what they wanted most: the location of Mike Williams’ body:
BRIAN WINCHESTER CONFESSION: I backed my Suburban down to the edge of the lake and put his body in the back and pushed his boat back out into the water.
Brian says he left Mike’s truck and trailer at Lake Seminole to make Mike’s disappearance look like an accident. But actually, Mike’s body was nowhere near Lake Seminole.
He was 60 miles away at Carr Lake, a remote marshy area just 10 minutes from Winchester’s home. Brian led investigators here to the spot where he buried Mike in 2000.
Jennifer Portman: They commenced what FDLE … has told me is the most extensive search they have ever undertaken in the history of the agency.
State Attorney’s Office
That search uncovered Mike’s skeletal remains and his wedding ring, among other things. And there was horrifying evidence of what happened to him.
Jennifer Portman: And what they were able to show very clearly was that he had been shot, basically, at point-blank range in the face with a shotgun.
Richard Schlesinger: This was up close and personal, deadly and gruesome.
Jennifer Portman: Yeah.
Scott Dungey: I put myself in Mike’s shoes and I struggle with the last couple seconds of his life. And the fact that he knew what was happenin’ and saw it happening really bothers me [cries].
And Winchester provided one final piece of the puzzle: he said it was all Denise’s idea:
BRIAN WINCHESTER CONFESSION: She would not get divorced and so she basically said there’s only one solution.
Jennifer Portman: As he tells it, she was not willing to endure the public shame of a divorce. …So she thought murder was a better answer.
Scott Dungey: I guess it was better to be known as … a widow than a divorcee.
Richard Schlesinger: Wow. That is incredibly cold.
Jennifer Portman: And wouldn’t it be great if we also, oh by the way, collected, you know, almost $2 million in insurance.
BRIAN WINCHESTER CONFESSION: We would end up together, we would live happily ever after, oh, and as a side note, we’ve got all this money to enjoy a wonderful life together.
The “happily ever after” part didn’t work out so well. In May 2018, five months after the discovery of Mike’s body was announced, Denise Williams was arrested and charged with first-degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder and accessory after the fact.
Tallahassee Democrat
Jennifer Portman: It was a very bizarre moment. And she said nothing. And she didn’t look at anybody. She just looked straight ahead.
WCTV-TV ANCHOR: This woman is behind bars at Leon County tonight, a grand jury indicting her for allegedly killing her husband nearly 18 years ago.
Patti Ketcham: It’s a bittersweet feeling. You are so thankful that she has been outed for the true person she is. But it doesn’t — [cries] — you’re still left with the same result.
Richard Schlesinger: Even though you saw her led away in shackles – handcuffs.
Patti Ketcham: In an ugly dress — and hair that needed a dye job. I gotta tell ya, that felt pretty good to me. …’Cause I know how important appearances are to her.
At her bail hearing, Denise had to listen to all two hours of Winchester’s confession:
BRIAN WINCHESTER CONFESSION: Her story that she needed to believe … was the story that we created for her, which was that she was at home with her baby, Mike went hunting and she has no idea what happened.
Denise was denied bail and is currently awaiting trial in county jail.
Ethan Way: She didn’t do it. She had nothin’ to do with it. She’s completely innocent.
Defense attorney Ethan Way is representing Denise.
Richard Schlesinger: Did she know about it?
Ethan Way: No. Not before. Not during. Not after.
Richard Schlesinger: You are very confident.
Ethan Way: I have an innocent client. It’s the best kind.
Alicia Devine/Tallahassee Democrat via AP, Pool
On December 11, 2018, prosecutor Jon Fuchs gave his opening argument at Denise Williams’ murder trial:
PROSECUTOR JON FUCHS [in court]: Denise likes the sound of being a widow much more than being a divorcee. Obviously, you can’t be caught with a murder. So, they had to make it look like an accident.
Early on, the State called Brian Winchester.
BRIAN WINCHESTER CONFESSION: You know …I committed this horrible crime to be with her.
BRIAN WINCHESTER [in court]: We wanted to be together and we weren’t going to let anything stop that.
BRIAN WINCHESTER [in court]: We had an agreement that she would never say anything about me and I would never say anything about her, because we felt like as long as neither one of us talked that nobody would ever find out what happened.
Alicia Devine/Tallahassee Democrat via AP, Pool, File
Ethan Way was in an enviable position for a defense attorney representing an accused murderer. The prosecution’s star witness admits he is the killer.
ETHAN WAY: When you shot Mike Williams at Lake Seminole with a 12-gauge shotgun, was Denise Williams standing with you?
BRIAN WINCHESTER: No, she wasn’t, she was in my head, behind me.
ETHAN WAY: Is it fair to say that over the years you’ve been obsessed with Denise Williams?
BRIAN WINCHESTER Obsessed? … Denise and I were best friends, we were Bonnie and Clyde, we were partners in crime.
ETHAN WAY: You pulled the trigger.
BRIAN WINCHESTER: Yes sir.
ETHAN WAY: Denise had no idea that you shot her husband in the face with a shotgun, did she?
BRIAN WINCHESTER: That’s correct.
Of course, Cheryl Williams always suspected her one-time daughter-in-law. Cheryl was now a witness for the prosecution:
PROSECUTOR JON FUCHS: The initial theory was that he was missing and possibly eaten by alligators.
CHERYL WILLIAMS: Right.
PROSECUTOR JON FUCHS: You never believed that, did you?
CHERYL WILLIAMS: No, sir.
PROSECUTOR JON FUCHS: How long did it take before Denise called you and said I’m sorry, I was wrong all these years?
CHERYL WILLIAMS: She never did.
After three days of testimony, both sides rested. Ethan way was so confident the State had no hard evidence he didn’t want the jury to consider any charges less than murder one.
JUDGE JAMES C. HANKINSON [to Denise Williams]: This is a strategy decision … You understand it’s a little bit out of the ordinary. I guess for want of a better word it’s a little bit of a gamble. If convicted as charged on first-degree murder … my hands are going to be tied … on sentencing, you understand that?
DENISE WILLIAMS: Yes.
The jury was now facing an all or nothing decision. The attorneys presented their closing arguments:
ETHAN WAY: This is not a case about trying to get, quote, “Justice for Mike.” …This is a murder case. … There’s no evidence that supports any of the allegations against my client. … We are counting on you to return a verdict that speaks the truth and that verdict is not guilty.
PROSECUTOR JON FUCHS: Think back – three days ago, Brian Winchester’s on the stand, describing how he shot his best friend. …Everybody in this entire room was moved by … the sheer horror of that situation. Except for one person. That one person sat here … absolute stone-faced. Didn’t bat an eye. Didn’t shed a tear. …That lady right there, Ms. Denise Williams is guilty.
Mike’s family and friends waited 18 years for answers; they only had to wait 8 hours for the jury’s verdict:
JUDGE HANKINSON READS VERDICT: As to count one of the indictment, the defendant is guilty of conspiracy to commit first- degree murder. As to count two, we the jury find the defendant is guilty of first-degree murder. As to count three … the defendant is guilty of accessory after the fact of first-degree murder.
Alicia Devine/Tallahassee Democrat via AP, Pool
For Cheryl Williams, it’s a been a long, heartbreaking fight. But, now, she can finally lay her son to rest.
Jennifer Portman: It hit her really hard. And I think she’s still coming to terms with it. I mean, the brutality of it, the — the finality of it — how anyone could do this to Mike.
Scott Dungey: It kinda destroys your — your faith in man.
Anessa Dungey: To do this to him, in the way it was done, and it’s just unimaginable.
Richard Schlesinger: You still miss him?
Patti Ketcham: Oh yeah [in tears].
Clay Ketcham: Well, I think, you know, [sighs], it’s– it’s because he was such a good guy. …He loved to work. He loved his family. He put ’em on a pedestal and he got killed for it. That’s the irony of this, is the kid did nothing wrong.
In 2020, an appeals court overturned Denise Williams’ murder conviction and life sentence. Williams was later resentenced to 30 years in prison for conspiracy to commit murder.
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On this “Face the Nation” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Sen. Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky
- Sen. Tammy Duckworth, Democrat of Illinois
- Sen. Chris Van Hollen, Democrat of Maryland
- Ret. Lt. Gen. H.R. McMaster
- Rep.-elect Sarah McBride, Democrat of Delaware
Click here to browse full transcripts of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: President-elect Trump makes a flurry of picks for top health and finance jobs. Will they pass muster with the Republican-controlled Senate?
The Trump transition team unveiled almost a dozen people selected to fill key Cabinet and White House roles. And as would-be nominees are whisked through Capitol Hill to meet with senators, there’s already been one major withdrawal, a quick replacement, and renewed scrutiny on some of the more controversial national security picks.
We will talk with two key senators, Republican Rand Paul and Democrat Tammy Duckworth. They will be questioning the president-elect’s choices on health, national security and more.
One of Trump’s national security advisers from his first term, retired Army Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster, will also weigh in.
Plus: As the conflict between Israel-Hamas and Hezbollah continues to rage, when can we expect a cease-fire? We will ask Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen, who has called President Biden’s handling of Israel shameful and a policy failure.
Finally, we will hear from representative-elect Sarah McBride on the challenges and opportunities facing her as she prepares to take office as the first openly transgender member of Congress.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
As we begin this holiday week, Americans are preparing to gather to give thanks for what has been and contemplate what’s to come. Our latest CBS News poll shows that 59 percent of Americans approve of how president-elect Donald Trump is handling the presidential transition.
Trump has kept up a steady drumbeat of staffing announcements from his Mar- a-Lago resort in Palm Beach, Florida.
And that is where we find our Nikole Killion this morning with the latest.
(Begin VT)
NIKOLE KILLION (voice-over): After Saturday lunch with one of the senators who will vote on his Cabinet picks, president-elect Donald Trump announced former domestic policy adviser Brooke Rollins for agriculture secretary.
One of his most highly anticipated selections was Scott Bessent for Treasury. If confirmed, the 62-year-old investor would be the first openly gay secretary to lead it and responsible for quarterbacking Mr. Trump’s proposed policies on taxes and tariffs.
DONALD TRUMP (Former President of the United States (R) and Current U.S. President-Elect): The most beautiful word in the dictionary is tariff.
NIKOLE KILLION: A new CBS News poll shows a majority of Americans support imposing tariffs on imported goods, and more have an optimistic view of the economy since the election.
Mr. Trump selected a pair of doctors to lead health agencies. Former Congressman David Weldon has promoted debunked anti-vaccine views and is being tapped to lead the Centers for Disease Control. Food and Drug Administration pick Martin Makary critiqued vaccine mandates during the COVID pandemic.
And Project 2025 architect Russ Vought plans to reprise his role as White House budget director, despite Trump’s disavowal of the conservative policy blueprint.
PRESIDENT-ELECT DONALD TRUMP: I have nothing to do with Project 2025.
NIKOLE KILLION: Our polling also finds many of the president-elect’s well- known designees have more support than opposition, including Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Tulsi Gabbard, and Pete Hegseth.
The former FOX News host picked to lead the Pentagon is drawing scrutiny over allegations of sexual assault in a 2017 police report.
Did you sexually assault a woman in Monterey, California?
PETE HEGSETH (U.S. Defense Secretary Nominee): I have – as far as the media is concerned, I will keep this very simple. The matter was fully investigated. And I was completely cleared. And that’s where I’m going to leave it.
(End VT)
NIKOLE KILLION: While president-elect Trump has filled out most of his Cabinet, a few economic positions remain up for grabs, including U.S. trade representative and small business administrator – Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s Nikole Killion in West Palm Beach, Florida.
We go now to Kentucky Republican Senator Rand Paul. He is set to chair the Homeland Security Committee next year, and he sits on the Health Committee.
Welcome back to Face the Nation, Senator.
SENATOR RAND PAUL (R-Kentucky): Good morning. Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you are a doctor by training.
I want to ask you about some of these health picks. I know that you personally said that you have vaccinated all of your children, but vaccination rates in this country, as you know, are on the decline.
Are you at all concerned that elevating individuals who have been publicly critical of some particular vaccines, RFK Jr. at HHS secretary, Dave Weldon to CDC director, that any of that will erode trust in vaccination?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: You know, I think all of us can agree that there’s an increase of vaccine hesitancy.
I think it comes from people not believing what the government is telling them. The fact that the CDC committee for vaccines and the FDA committee for vaccines said for COVID boosters that you should take a booster if you’re over 65, and yet the Biden administration and Rochelle Walensky actually politicized that, didn’t follow the signs and said you should boost your 6-month-old, and the American public is rejecting this.
Only about 20 percent of the American public of all ages is taking the COVID booster, because the government hasn’t been honest with us. That dishonesty has led to vaccine hesitancy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it’s vaccination rates in other – other vaccines as well, not just COVID vaccines. There’s concern about measles. There are concerns about other…
SENATOR RAND PAUL: Right, but people have to believe it. Exactly.
But people are doubting because they’re being told that. I will give you an example. Look, I think vaccines, smallpox, the story of smallpox vaccine, polio vaccine are some of the most miraculous discoveries in all of medicine. And I’m not against vaccines.
But, like, when my kids were little, the hepatitis B vaccine, they still want to give it to them as a newborn. I just – my baby is new and just, you know, come into the world, and you can see how a lot of reasonable people say, why do I have to do it as a newborn? Could I come back in three months or six months?
So, really, it’s about choice. It’s about getting rid of mandates. It’s about letting people participate, but it’s also about the government being honest. What are the risks and what are the benefits? And they haven’t been honest on COVID, because healthy children do not die from COVID, do not get seriously sick, and there’s no proof that the vaccine has any medical benefit for healthy children.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we want to move on to other topics, sir, but we will continue to cover vaccination in this country.
I think what you said there is that you’re supportive of all those health nominees, from what I heard. You – you have been – I’m sorry. Did you want to say…
SENATOR RAND PAUL: I was just going to say, yes, I am supportive.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: But I wouldn’t describe them as the problem with vaccine hesitancy. I would describe the government misinformation as the problem with vaccine hesitancy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. Messengers matter, though.
But you have raised concerns in your role on Homeland Security about the implementation of some of the promises Donald Trump made on the campaign trail. His mass deportation vow is very popular. Our CBS polling shows 57 percent of voters like the idea, but how it is implemented matters a lot to voters.
The vast majority prefer that federal law enforcement or immigration agencies carry them out. Just 40 percent say the U.S. military should be involved. The stated Trump plan is to use the military, military assets, deputize the National Guard, and have them act as immigration agents. Do you believe that is lawful?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: You know, I’m 100 percent supportive of going after the 15,000 murderers, the 13,000 sexual assault perpetrators, rapists, all these people.
Let’s send them on their way to prison or back home to another prison. So I would say all-points bulletin, all in, but you don’t do it with the Army because it’s illegal. And we’ve – we’ve had a distrust of putting the Army into our streets, because the police have a difficult job, but the police understand the Fourth Amendment. They have to go to judges. They have to get warrants. It has to be specific.
And so I’m for removing these people, but I would do it through the normal process of domestic policing. Now, I would say that the mayor of Denver, if he’s going to resist federal law, which there’s a longstanding history of the supremacy of federal law, if he’s going to resist that, it will go all the way to the Supreme Court.
And I would suspect that he would be removed from office. I don’t know whether or not there’d be a criminal prosecution for someone resisting federal law, but he will lose. And people need to realize that what he is – – what he is offering is a form of insurrection, where the states resist the federal government.
Most people objected to that and rejected that long ago. So I think the mayor of Denver is on the wrong side of history, and, really, I think, will face legal ramifications if he doesn’t obey the federal law.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, just context on those numbers you rattled off in terms of criminals, those numbers from ICE are accurate figures, but they’re over a 40-year period of time.
What we know now about the immigration authorities who would have to be charged with rounding these individuals up, there are just 6,000 agents, 41,000 detention beds to carry out the assignment of rounding up millions of undocumented people, potentially.
How do you suggest they implement it? And if this is a red line for you in terms of using the military, would you vote no on the DHS secretary, Kristi Noem?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: I will not support and will not vote to use the military in our cities. I think it’s a terrible image.
But I will tell you that, just in the last week, with the belief that a new administration will change things, there were four or five criminals arrested in the last week. And what would happen and I think what will happen under Donald Trump’s administration is, I don’t recommend to use the Army, but I would use the FBI, I would use ICE, I would use Border Patrol.
And they have a list now of 15,000. I don’t care if it came in over 40 years or 10 years. If you’ve got a list, you put these people on an all- points bulletin, these are the kind of people that are dangerous and that everybody needs to be the watch on, and they would go out and seek those people.
That – we have about 30,000 very dangerous people already convicted of crimes. That should be the first priority for all of this. Let’s go find those people. But it’s not about detaining them. In all likelihood, they should be going to a jail, either a jail here or in the country they came from.
So I think, if we did that, there will be a lot of unity. If they send the Army into New York, and you have 10,000 troops marching, carrying semiautomatic weapons, I think it’s a terrible image, and I will oppose that. But it’s not that I oppose removing people. I just…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: … object to what has been against the law for over 100 years, and that’s using the Army.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But deputizing the National Guard, that specifically is the proposal. You also oppose that?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: I don’t think it’s the best way to do it. It’s less clear whether that’s legal or illegal. Typically, it has to be done at the behest of the governors.
I still don’t like a militarization of police, whether it’s National Guard or Army. I think there’s a lot of FBI.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: There’s a lot of Border Patrol agents. There’s a better way to do it. And it needs to be individualized.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: That doesn’t mean I’m any less serious about getting it done. It just needs to be done according to the law and consistent with our traditions.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Understood.
You’ve made clear you are a fiscal conservative. I want to ask you about the choice just made to select hedge fund manager Scott Bessent as the treasury secretary. He had a long financial career. He served as the Chief Investment Officer for George Soros’ funds. He’s been a political donor.
Elon Musk came out publicly against him, calling him business as usual. Do you favor Mr. Bessent in the role as Treasury secretary?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: You know, I have heard good things about him. I haven’t made a decision. I lean towards being supportive.
I don’t like tariffs, but, then again, I don’t like the president promoting tariffs. I think tariffs are a tax on the consumer, and they ignore things like with steel. There are 80 workers working in steel-buying industry for every worker making steel.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: So, yes, you can protect certain industries, but it’s at the expense of other people.
I don’t believe that will be enough for me to want to vote against Bessent, because it’s also the president’s position as well. I will be vocal in saying that I think tariffs are bad and that international trade actually saves every consumer about $7,000 a year. So, everybody in our country is $7,000 richer because of international trade.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: It’s part of one of the booms of postwar and post- Industrial Revolution. This amazing international trade has made us all richer, and we need to talk about the statistics and facts concerning the benefits of trade.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Understood on the nuances and specifics there, but that is primarily how Donald Trump is promising to pay for all the things he promised on the campaign trail.
As you know, the federal debt is past $36 trillion as of this week. His proposals to lift taxes off of tips, overtime, Medicare, Social Security, give tax credits, that could add as much as $8 trillion more to the deficit, according to the Committee for a Responsible Budget.
Do you actually expect Republicans to take up these proposals?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: You know, in 2017, I voted for a tax reduction package that they said would add to the debt, but I also forced my colleagues to vote for pay-as-you-go. It’s a policy that’s in our law, and they have to waive it, which means that if a tax cut causes a reduction and causes an increase in the debt because of reduced revenue, that you have to have spending cuts.
So, I have always been in favor of the tax cuts, but I have also been in favor of the spending cuts. The same will occur with this. If we do cut spend – cut taxes, which I think helps the economy, you leave money in the hands of the productive private sector, I think that’s a good idea. But if you do it, I would cut spending.
And there will be procedural blockade or procedural votes that I will force that says that we should also cut spending as well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Our polling shows that the vast majority of Americans, 86 percent, prefer people with experience running the agencies, and 64 percent polled by us think it’s important to appoint people with that experience in Washington.
Given that, for example, the Pentagon pick hasn’t ever managed a large corporation or held a high rank in the military, do you think he can run the Pentagon?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: Yes.
And I think the vast majority of people, if you poll them, will say that they don’t think people should be picked based on religion or gender or sexuality. They want people to be picked on merit.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: And one of one of Pete Hegseth’s criticisms of our Pentagon is that we’ve gone away from merit…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: … and gone more towards racial characteristics.
And so I think that the people are and would be overwhelmingly in favor…
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: … of someone who’s going to base hiring on merit, not on racial characteristics.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
Senator Paul, thank you for your time today.
Face the Nation will be back in a minute.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We go now to Democratic Senator Tammy Duckworth of the state of Illinois. She sits on the Armed Services and Foreign Relations Committees.
Good morning to you, Senator.
SENATOR TAMMY DUCKWORTH (D-Illinois): Good morning. Thanks for having me on.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, former Congressman Matt Gaetz took himself out of the running this week to become attorney general.
This was after he had met with senators. And CBS has reported that as many as 15 Republicans opposed him. Does that suggest to you that your Republican colleagues in the Senate will hold the line, or are you still concerned they will just green-light anyone Trump nominates?
SENATOR TAMMY DUCKWORTH: Well, I’m deeply concerned that they will green- light. I’m glad that they held the line on him.
I’m also glad that they voted the way they did for the Republican leader, but that was in the secret ballot when they elected Senator Thune. And, you know, Mr. Trump’s main choice for that position was not selected.
But from what I’m hearing from my Republican colleagues on everything from defense secretary to other posts, it sounds like they are ready to roll over for Mr. Trump.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, on that point of Defense, since you sit in this advisory role on Armed Services, I don’t have to tell you, but, for our audience, there are over 200,000 American women who serve in active duty service right now, thousands of them in front-line combat roles.
You were one of them in 2004, when your Black Hawk helicopter you were piloting was shot at by an RPG, and you sustained severe injuries.
Here is what Mr. Trump’s pick for defense secretary said about women serving:
(Begin VT)
PETE HEGSETH (U.S. Defense Secretary Nominee): I’m straight up just saying we should not have women in combat roles. It hasn’t made us more effective, hasn’t made us more lethal, has made fighting more complicated.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do your colleagues who sit with you on Armed Services believe that Mr. Hegseth’s statement there is an issue that he needs to perhaps retract?
SENATOR TAMMY DUCKWORTH: Well, I think they need to, because he’s wrong.
Our military could not go to war without the 220,000-plus women who serve in uniform. The women in our military does make us more effective, does make us more lethal.
And let me just make one thing clear. The women who are in those very particular roles, whether it’s in Special Forces or the SEALs or the infantry, they meet the same standards as the men. And so he’s been out there saying that, you know, women are not as strong, we don’t – the ones who are in those roles have met the same standards as the men and have passed the very rigorous testing.
And so he’s just flat-out wrong. Our military could not go to war without the women who wear this uniform. And, frankly, America’s daughters are just as capable of defending liberty and freedom as her sons.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Having served in combat yourself, what do you think of the idea that women make fighting more complicated? That was specifically what he focused on.
SENATOR TAMMY DUCKWORTH: Well, it just shows his lack of understanding of where our military is.
He was a pretty low-ranking guy in the military, and he never had a command position. He was a platoon leader, I think, once or twice, but he never even commanded a company. And so this is a man who is inordinately unqualified for the position.
Remember that the Pentagon is three million servicemen and women and civilians. It is over a $900 billion budget. He’s never, you know, run anything anywhere near to that size. And, frankly, women actually make our military more effective.
And I have personally found that I brought many insights to my job when I was a company commander, when I was a logistics officer that came from my own personal background that made things better. I took better care of my men, for example, in my unit. I was often the only woman in an all-male unit, and my gender didn’t have – wasn’t a problem.
I just adapted, and we continued to perform the mission.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The question of character has also come up in regard to this leadership role. Mr. Hegseth has acknowledged that he paid a woman back in 2017 to quiet her accusations of sexual assault. He claims it was consensual sex.
I’m sure you read that Monterey police report, as we did here. It refers to the offense code as – quote – “rape, victim unconscious of the nature of the act.” It details both the accuser’s and Hegseth’s version of events.
Here’s what Senator Markwayne Mullin said it shows: “two people flirting with each other.”
Is the committee going to speak with the victim to ask if this was a misunderstanding?
SENATOR TAMMY DUCKWORTH: Well, that’s – that will be the decision of the Republican chairman of the committee next year.
I hope that we will. But I suspect that they, again, will roll over for Mr. Trump. Frankly, I will make – raise those questions. Remember that we’ve just fought over a decade of fights and – and overhauled the military and its treatment of military sexual trauma.
It’s frankly an insult and really troubling that Mr. Trump would nominate someone who has admitted that he’s paid off a victim who has claimed rape allegations against him. This is not the kind of person you want to lead the Department of Defense.
MARGARET BRENNAN: To move to a vote you took this past week, you said you have disgust at the brutal tactics used by the Netanyahu government in Gaza, but you voted against all three resolutions of disapproval this past week that would have paused very specific offensive weapons shipments to Israel.
Your colleague Senator Van Hollen said it’s just about getting Israel to comply with U.S. law. How do you respond to that? Why shouldn’t they be held to the same standards as other recipients of U.S. aid?
SENATOR TAMMY DUCKWORTH: Well, I respect Senator Van Hollen’s position. And, in fact, I have cosigned many of the letters that he’s led that has called on Israel to comply with humanitarian standards across the world.
My decision comes from my military experience, the fact that many of these rounds were not going to be delivered for a couple of years, the fact that, you know, these are resolutions. They don’t actually have binding effect. And, frankly, for me, my decision came from the fact that we have tens of thousands of US troops in harm’s way right now.
And I am deeply concerned that a resolution that doesn’t actually do anything might embolden the Houthis and the Iranian regime and Hamas to further target and – American troops abroad. So I respect Chris. He and I are good friends. We were freshmen in the Senate together, but we come at this from slightly different angles, mine from 23 years of military experience.
But I do share his concern about the brutal way that Israel has acted in Gaza. And, you know, I have cosigned many of his letters.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Our polling shows that there is a desire among the American people to see Democrats and Republicans work together in this future Trump administration.
With that in mind, I’m looking at some of these nominees, including Trump’s pick for labor secretary. She is drawing praise from unions because she is perceived as – as pro-union. Could you see yourself supporting her or any of the other nominees?
SENATOR TAMMY DUCKWORTH: Absolutely.
I – you know, what I would need to do is have a chance to sit down and talk with each one of these nominees, and listen to them and hear what they have to say. I think Congressman Collins over at VA, he’s the nominee for VA, is another person I can talk with. In fact, I worked with him when I was in the House a few years back.
I am going to evaluate each one of these candidates based on their ability to do the job and their willingness to put the needs of the American people first and not be on a retribution campaign and a – for Mr. Trump.
So it’s about, are they willing to be independent and do the job that they are being nominated to do, and are they competent and qualified for the position?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Duckworth, we appreciate your time this morning.
SENATOR TAMMY DUCKWORTH: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we’ll be right back with a lot more Face the Nation.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION.
We’re now joined by Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen.
Good to have you here.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): It’s great to be with you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, in these final days of Democratic control of the Senate and the White House, there’s a long to-do list. Congress has to fund the government by end of December, pass the defense bill, the NDAA, an extension to the farm bill, and I know Democrats want to confirm as many judges as possible. What’s top of your list?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Well, all of those are on the list. Top of my list is also the disaster relief funding. Emergency relief. We had big parts of the country hit by hurricanes and other natural disasters. In my state of Maryland, we had the collapse of the Key Bridge in Baltimore. So, we’ve always taken the approach that the whole country will be there to help fellow Americans in need. The president has now submitted $100 billion emergency disaster relief plan that includes funding for the Key Bridge. So, I hope that we will get that done by the end of the year. People need that relief and they need it now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s about $8 billion for the bridge alone, is that right?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Not for the bridge alone. This is – that’s part of the emergency relief fund that includes approximately $2 billion for the bridge.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. And you’re relatively confident that this can be delivered on?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: I hope that all of our colleagues, Republicans and Democrats alike, will support disaster relief.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: We’ve always had the philosophy, all for one and one for all when Americans get hit by these disasters. I hope we will stick with that position.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we also are looking at a new Congress very soon and, as you know, a new commander in chief. Republicans will have the majority in the Senate with 53 seats, so they don’t really need Democratic votes to confirm many of the picks that Mr. Trump has been making to run agencies.
But from what you’ve seen to date, are you in favor of any of them, your colleague, Marco Rubio, as secretary of State, for example, or this new choice to be Labor secretary?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Look, my view is, this is what the vetting process is all about, the hearing process. The Senate, of course, under the Constitution, has the job of advising and consenting on nominations. And I take that responsibility very seriously.
I’ve been troubled by some talk that President-elect Donald Trump wants to short circuit that constitutional approach using this recess appointment device, and it will be really important that the new republican leader in the Senate uphold the Senate’s prerogatives under the Constitution and not try to do an end run.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll stay tuned to see how that plays out.
Let’s turn to the Middle East. You said that President Biden’s inaction to halt the horrific humanitarian situation inside of Gaza is a stain on his administration, that it’s shameful. Is there anything in these final weeks that could be done to erase that stain?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: I think there are things that can be done. And I should emphasize that I supported President Biden’s decision to travel to Israel in the aftermath of the brutal Hamas attacks of October 7th of last year, and stand with the people of Israel as they confront this threat. But I also wish the president had effectively used U.S. leverage to essentially assert his own positions. We’ve seen this pattern where President Biden makes demands of Prime Minister Netanyahu, only to be ignored or slapped down entirely. And then President Biden sends more bombs and more money. That is not an effective use of leverage. So, I do hope in these closing months the president will finally make more effective use of American leverage to, at the very least, uphold American law.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: To insist that the Netanyahu government allows humanitarian aid into Gaza, and that they use our weapons in a manner consistent with the laws of war.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you take a nuanced and specific stand on that, upholding U.S. law. This is often characterized, though, as being for or against helping Israel. There were 19 senators, you were one of them, who voted this past week to pause specific shipments on three different groups of weapons, offensive weapons, to Israel. You said the State Department’s reviewing 500 incidents where U.S. weapons were used and caused unnecessary civilian harm. The State Department has said Israel’s doing things to fix the situation, which is why weapons continue to be green lit. Are you suggesting that’s a lie?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: I’m suggesting that the president of the United States is not fully complying with American law on this question. If you look at the letter that was sent by Secretary Austin and Secretary Blinken to Israeli authorities in October, you look at that final paragraph, you’ll see that they’re complaining about the fact that there is no effective mechanism right now for getting to the bottom of claims of civilian harm. The State Department has, as I said, about 500, as you said, and we haven’t gotten to the bottom of those.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Because the process is broken, and I would argue that there’s not been the will to fix the process because a lot of people don’t want the process to produce the obvious answer, which is, there have been many cases where we’ve seen U.S. weapons used in violation of the international humanitarian law. In fact, if you go back to the NSM 20 report earlier this year, the Biden administration said specifically that there was a high likelihood that U.S. weapons were being used in violation of international law, and yet they’ve done nothing in the intervening period to enforce that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When I pressed U.S. officials on this privately, they’ve said, what do you want us to do? Do you want us to put in a halt for a few weeks? And then Donald Trump reverses it. What’s the point? How do you respond?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Well, the point is, they should have been doing this for a much longer period of time. The president had ample opportunities over the last year. There are many people in the administration, senior level – at the senior level who told me that this war was going to come to an end back in January. You know, I’ve met with hostage families on numerous occasions who have been calling out Prime Minister Netanyahu for not agreeing to a ceasefire and a return of their loved ones. Minister Gallant, the defense minister of Israel, was fired because he wanted to prioritize the return of hostages, and yet President Biden has never called out Prime Minister Netanyahu.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: For his obstruction on this. Even though those families I’ve met with are calling him out.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Even post-election, why do you think he won’t do that?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: I really don’t know. I just don’t know why the president of the United States has not been willing to make more effective use of American leverage to assert his own stated objectives. I mean he’s been ignored on other things, too, right? He wants the PA to be the nucleus of governance in a post-war Gaza.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Palestinian Authority.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: He wants a two-state solution. Prime Minister Netanyahu has not only ignored those, he’s gone out there and bragged about how he’s blocking President Biden’s efforts. And yet the blank check just keeps on coming. So, what my colleagues and I are saying is, let’s just pause these transfers of offensive weapons, certain ones, until Prime Minister Netanyahu and his government come into compliance with American law. These are American laws on the books.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: So, this is not about whether we support Israel or not. Of course we support Israel. It’s about whether our support is used in a manner consistent with American law and American values.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Van Hollen, thank you for explaining your position.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to retired Army Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster, who served as national security adviser in the first Trump administration. His latest book is “At War with Ourselves,” which chronicles his time at the White House.
Good morning, and welcome back.
LIEUTENANT GENERAL H.R. MCMASTER (Retired, Former White House National Security Adviser): Good morning, Margaret. Happy Thanksgiving.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Happy early Thanksgiving to you.
I want to ask you about the geopolitical threat picture right now that the next commander in chief will be walking into the Oval Office and facing. In these final weeks of the Biden administration, Ukraine has started using U.S.-made ATACMS, a type of longer range missile, to strike within Russian territory. President Biden also approved anti-personnel land mines. The aim is to get them on stronger footing before Trump takes office.
Can these weapons quickly make a difference?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL H.R. MCMASTER: They can make a difference, Margaret. Really it made no sense to not allow the Ukrainians to fire those missiles at the bases that Russia was using to continue their onslaught against the Ukrainian people and Ukrainian infrastructure. And so, it’s another one of these example how the Biden administration has taken this halting approach to providing weapons and then permissions to use weapons.
And so, I think it’s – it’s important because both sides right now are incentivized to make as many gains on the battlefield as they can before the new Trump administration comes in. And you see Russia throwing troops into Ukrainian defenses. I mean, they’re taking – you know, they’re taking tens of thousands of casualties a month. I think it’s really an unsustainable rate. And what the Ukrainians are doing now is trying to protect themselves from the onslaught, inflict as many casualties as they can, and they’re trading some – some space for time and the opportunity to cause more attrition on Russian forces.
So, the next couple of months, I think, are really critical in terms of the – you know, how – what is the next phase in the war in Ukraine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you know, President Zelenskyy said just yesterday that he’s sure Vladimir Putin is trying to, quote, “push us out by January 20th,” and try to demonstrate that he has the upper hand. He’s not saying that, you know, just as an observation. He is looking at the national security adviser, Mike Waltz. He’s looking at the possible next secretary of State, Marco Rubio, who has voted against Ukraine aid. The vice president-elect is against helping Ukraine. Can Ukraine get the upper hand here, and are these top advisers going to be persuadable?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL H.R. MCMASTER: Well, this is a real problem, Margaret. You know, I think what you’re seeing is, this delivers a psychological blow to the Ukrainians. Ukrainians are struggling to generate the manpower that they need and to sustain their defensive efforts. And that’s – it’s important that they get the weapons they need and the training that they need, but also they have to have the confidence that they can prevail. And any sort of messages that we might reduce our aid are quite damaging to them from a moral perspective.
I think he’ll – and what I hope is that those who President Trump has nominated, and President Trump himself will begin to see the quite obvious connections between the war in Ukraine and this axis of aggressors that are doing everything they can to tear down the existing international order.
I mean, heck, Margaret, I mean North Korean soldiers are fighting on European soil in the first major war in Europe since World War II. Look at what China’s doing to sustain Russia’s war-making machine with the cash Vladimir Putin needs but also with the equipment and the hardware necessary to build these missiles that are continuing this onslaught. Iran. Iran is providing the drones and missiles. North Korea’s also providing, you know, eight million rounds of artillery. So, I think what’s happened is, so many people have taken such a myopic view of Ukraine and they’ve misunderstood Putin’s intentions and how consequential the war is to our interests across the world.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, one of the things – and you are a historian. You’ve written quite a lot and looked at presidential decision making. One of the things you’ve written in “At War with Ourselves” was, “it is important,” based on your study of the Vietnam War, “to ensure that the president gets the best analysis and multiple options so he can make informed decisions.”
Do you think so far that Mr. Trump’s choices for director of national intelligence, for defense secretary, are these individuals who will provide the president with the best analysis and what he needs to hear, not just what he wants to hear?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL H.R. MCMASTER: Well, this is what the Senate has to – has to really exercise their advice and consent role. And I think it’s worth going back to Federalist 76 where John Adams said, really this advice and consent is so important to make sure the best people are in those positions. President Trump, as I wrote in the book, he does learn. He does listen to advice. He does evolve his understanding. So, who will those people be?
I think for the new secretary of defense, the nominated director of national intelligence, they ought to be asked, what do you think motivates or drives and constrains Vladimir Putin? There’s a fundamental misunderstanding based on – on the nominee for – for the – for DNI about what motivates him. It’s not his security concerns. His security concerns don’t need to be allayed. That’s the mistake the Biden administration made. And I think as a result almost green lighted the invasion – the reinvasion of Ukraine in February of 2022.
What are the consequences if – if Ukraine fails and Russia succeeds globally? I think, Margaret, they have got to be asked about, you know, really, how do they reconcile or help President Trump reconcile peace through strength and what you see in some elements of the Republican Party which replicate the far left oftentimes toward retrenchment and disengagement and then even blaming ourselves for the acts of our adversaries as – as – as Tulsi Gabbard has done, you know, talking about, you know, how Putin really felt aggrieved. And that’s why he had to invade Ukraine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, that’s a Russian talking point that she’s repeated and in direct contradiction (ph) to what U.S. intelligence has concluded.
I also want to ask you about someone you personally –
LIEUTENANT GENERAL H.R. MCMASTER: And this is what – this is what I can’t understand, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
LIEUTENANT GENERAL H.R. MCMASTER: There’s some – there’s some people in the Republican Party these days who kind of tend to parrot Vladimir Putin’s talking points.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL H.R. MCMASTER: I don’t know if it’s because they’re drawn to him and they see him as a – kind of a defender of western civilization, just a shirtless guy on horseback, but they’ve got to disabuse themselves of this, you know, strange affection for Vladimir Putin. You know, who – who is – who is not going to stop in his efforts to restore Russia to national greatness at our expense. That’s what he’s obsessed with. He’s obsessed with kind of re-establishing the Russian empire.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
LIEUTENANT GENERAL H.R. MCMASTER: And so he has aspirations that go far beyond anything that’s in reaction to what we do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
LIEUTENANT GENERAL H.R. MCMASTER: And the only thing that stops him really is strength, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you wrote in your book that you didn’t understand Donald Trump’s fascination with Vladimir Putin.
Quickly, Seb Gorka is going to be the senior director for counterterrorism, deputy assistant to the president. Is he a good person to advise on national security?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL H.R. MCMASTER: No, no, he’s not, Margaret. But I – you know, I think that – that the president and others who are working with him will probably determine that pretty quickly soon after he gets into that job.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, timestamp on that prediction. H.R. McMaster, a lot to talk to you about. We’re going to have to leave it there for today.
We’ll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: The 2024 election was historic for several reasons. Among them, the first openly transgender person was elected to the United States Congress. She joins us now from the state she will be representing, Delaware. Democratic Representative-elect Sarah McBride.
Welcome to FACE THE NATION.
REPRESENTATIVE-ELECT SARAH MCBRIDE (D-DE): Thank you for having me, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You know, it’s interesting given how polarized, how angry and divided this country is that people choose to serve and to run. You told my colleague, Scott MacFarlane, that it was your personal experience as a caregiver for your husband during his bout with terminal cancer that inspired you to run. Do you expect that health care policy will be the focus of your work here?
REPRESENTATIVE-ELECT SARAH MCBRIDE: Well, I certainly am glad to be back here in Delaware after two weeks of orientation and to have the privilege of serving the state that I love in Congress.
I ran to bring down costs facing workers, retirees, and their families. That means bringing down the cost of health care, but also housing and childcare and everyday expenses like gas and groceries.
I did run for office after my experience as a caregiver to my husband, Andy, during his battle with cancer. And throughout that experience, while Andy ultimately lost his life, we both knew how lucky we were. We knew how lucky Andy was to have health insurance that would allow him to get care that would hopefully save his life. And we both knew how lucky we were to have flexibility with our employers that allowed Andy to focus on the full- time job of getting care and me to focus on the full-time job of being there by his side to care for him, to love him, to marry him, and to walk him to his passing.
And I ran for office because I do not believe that in the wealthiest, most developed nation on earth, that that time and that ability to get care should be a matter of luck. I believe it should be the law of the land. And it’s why during my time in the Delaware general assembly I passed paid family and medical leave and secured the largest investment in our state’s Medicaid program. And I want to do that work in Congress on health care, but also on housing and childcare.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Paid leave is something that Mr. Trump has – has paid lip service to. We’ll see in the new Congress if it comes up.
We see in our CBS polling that 86 percent of voters feel congressional Democrats should find common ground with Mr. Trump and Republicans.
Do you feel you can?
REPRESENTATIVE-ELECT SARAH MCBRIDE: Well, I said throughout this campaign that I will work with anyone who’s willing to work with me to help Delawareans, to lower cost facing my constituents. There are opportunities for us to find common ground. But it’s also clear that this administration, as it begins to fill its appointments with Project 2025 authors, that a lot of the policies that this president will pursue will likely hurt my constituents and raise prices.
And so, where I need to fight back, I will. But where I can find common ground, I will certainly seek it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE-ELECT SARAH MCBRIDE: That’s when I’ve done during my time in the general assembly where nearly every bill I passed, passed with bipartisan support.
MARGARET BRENNAN: As you mentioned, you were here for orientation. Speaker of the House Mike Johnson was asking about you coming to work and some objections by a female South Carolina Republican representative regarding what bathroom you’d be able to use.
Here’s what the speaker said.
(BEGIN VC)
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): A man is a man, and a woman is a woman. And a man cannot become a woman. That said, I also believe – that’s what scripture teaches, what I just said. But I also believe that we treat everybody with dignity.
(END VC)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you believe are you are being treated with dignity by your colleagues?
REPRESENTATIVE-ELECT SARAH MCBRIDE: I didn’t run for the United States House of Representatives to talk about what bathroom I use. I didn’t run to talk about myself. I ran to deliver for Delawareans. And while Republicans in Congress seem focused on bathrooms and trans people and specifically me, I’m focused on rolling up my sleeves, diving into the details, setting up my office, and beginning the hard work of delivering for Delawareans on the issues that I know keep them up at night.
And I look forward to working with any colleague who’s ready to work and ready to be serious about the issues that matter because, at the end of the day, how I’m being treated does not matter. What matters is how the American people are being treated, and whether we’re actually focused on the issues that matter to them.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, some of your fellow congressional Democrats, including Tom Suozzi and Seth Moulton, have also recently spoken about their feelings, looking back at the last election, and said Democrats should be more open about saying whether they object to transgender athletes playing in girls’ sports. Those were the specific examples they brought up.
How would you respond to your soon-to-be Democratic colleagues on those? Do you understand why some parents, for example, feel uncomfortable or frustrated?
REPRESENTATIVE-ELECT SARAH MCBRIDE: Look, I think this country is still entering into a conversation about who trans people are, the full diversity of the community. And I’ve had conversations with colleagues in the Democratic caucus already that span diversity of thought about how the party should engage on a whole host of issues.
But I think we are all united that every single American deserves equal rights, I think we are all united that attempts to attack a vulnerable community are not only mean spirited but really an attempt to misdirect. Because every single time we hear the incoming administration or Republicans in Congress talk about any vulnerable group in this country, we have to be clear that it is an attempt to distract. It is an attempt to distract from what they are actually doing. Every single time – every single time we hear them say the word trans, look at what they’re doing with their right hand. Look at what they’re doing to pick the pocket of American workers, to fleece seniors while privatizing Social Security and Medicare. Look what they’re doing undermining workers.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE-ELECT SARAH MCBRIDE: And here’s also what we have to be clear about, because I think the last week has been a prime example of this. Every bit of time and energy that is used to divert the attention of the federal government to go after trans people is time and energy that is not focused on addressing the cost of living for our constituents. And we have clear that there is a real cost for the American worker every time they focus on this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Congresswoman-elect, I’m sure we’ll be seeing you here in Washington.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s it for us today. Thank you all for watching. Until next week.
For FACE THE NATION, I’m Margaret Brennan.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
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