This week on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” President-elect Trump promises big change for America’s role in the world – but with much of the world on fire, will his policies extinguish the flames or fuel them? Margaret Brennan speaks to Rep. Michael Waltz, Trump’s pick for national security adviser, as well as Cindy McCain, director of the U.N., World Food Programme.

Rep. Mike Waltz, the Florida Republican who is Donald Trump’s pick for his national security adviser, said Sunday that the president-elect has a good relationship with Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán that he suggested could play a key role in bringing an end to the war in Ukraine. 

“Orbán has regular engagement with the Russians, and he clearly has a good relationship with President Trump,” Waltz said on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.” “I would hope the entire world would want to see some type of cessation to the slaughter that is happening in eastern Ukraine.”

Orbán, an authoritarian leader with ties to Russia, met with Trump at Mar-a-Lago last week, along with Waltz and Elon Musk. Days after the meeting, Orbán announced that he had spoken to Russian President Vladimir Putin, saying that “we are taking every possible diplomatic step to argue in favour of a ceasefire” and peace talks. He later appeared to float a Christmas ceasefire and a prisoner swap between Russia and Ukraine.

Waltz wouldn’t say whether Orbán’s message to Putin came out of the meeting with Trump. But he noted that “we’re going to continue to talk,” and that “President Trump’s made it clear he wants this war to stop.”

“We need to stop the fighting,” Waltz said. “If that is some type of ceasefire as a first step, again, we’ll take a hard look at what that means.”

Trump has repeatedly pledged that he would end the war between Russia and Ukraine immediately upon returning to the White House while claiming that Putin would never have invaded the country if he were president. Waltz said that since Trump’s victory in the election, the framework of discussion with world leaders surrounding the war between Russia and Ukraine has shifted to talk of how the conflict comes to an end. 

“How do we end this conflict? How do we do it in a way that restores stability, stops the carnage, and hopefully makes this a permanent end, not just a pause?” Waltz said. “Those are all things that we’re thinking through.”

The meeting with Orbán came after Trump met with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy on Dec. 7 in Paris after which Trump called for an immediate ceasefire and for negotiations between Russia and Ukraine to begin. 

Zelenskyy said following the president’s statement that the war “cannot simply end with a piece of paper and a few signatures.” And though he said he had a “good meeting” with Trump, he warned that a ceasefire “without guarantees can be reignited at any moment.” 

The Biden administration announced last week it would be sending another package of weapons to Ukraine, valued at $500 million, according to Reuters. Ukrainian ambassador to the U.S. Oksana Markarova, also appearing on “Face the Nation” on Sunday, said that her country’s ability to fight off Russian forces is “still a question of artillery and weapons and air defense, most importantly, and the more we can have, the faster we can- the more efficiently we can defend.”

But Markarova noted “we are not asking for other troops. Ukrainians are still capable of defending our own country. We’re asking for the military support.”

On this “Face the Nation” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:  

• Trump national security adviser pick Rep. Michael Waltz, Republican of Florida 
• Sen. Amy Klobuchar, Democrat of Minnesota 
• Gary Cohn, IBM vice chairman 
• Oksana Markarova, Ukrainian ambassador to the U.S. 
• Cindy McCain, U.N. World Food Programme executive director

Click here to browse full transcripts of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”   

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MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.

And this week on Face the Nation: President-elect Trump promises big change for America’s role in the world. But with much of the world on fire, will his policies extinguish the flames or fuel them?

Mr. Trump’s traveling transition team didn’t have far to go for the annual Army-Navy Game. This year, it was just outside Washington. The game gave his national security picks the opportunity to review and cheer on some of our future troops.

(Begin VT)

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ (R-Florida): We love our Navy, except today.

FORMER REPRESENTATIVE TULSI GABBARD (D-Hawaii): Go, Army. Beat Navy.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: Go, Army. Beat Navy.

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Unfortunately for them, Navy won.

And some of Trump’s intended nominees will face a tough path to victory themselves. But one man who’s definitely headed for a job in the White House, incoming National Security Adviser Mike Waltz, will join us to preview the new administration’s priorities amid instability throughout the Middle East, tensions in Asia and an unrelenting war in Ukraine.

Ukraine’s ambassador to the U.S., Oksana Markarova, will also be here. We will ask how new leadership in Washington will change her own country’s calculus, as Russia’s invasion grinds on.

Then: President Biden breaks a record by commuting the sentences of 1,500 Americans. We will ask Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar about that and the future of law enforcement under Trump.

Plus: Donald Trump promises Wall Street big changes are ahead.

(Begin VT)

DONALD TRUMP (Former President of the United States (R) and Current U.S. President-Elect): We’re going to do things, I think, that haven’t been really done before. We’re going to be cutting taxes still further.

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: We will dive into the details with IBM vice chairman Gary Cohn, who served as a top economic aide to Trump during his first term.

And, finally, a conversation with the head of the United Nations’ World Food Program, Cindy McCain, about the link between global hunger and global instability.

It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.

Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.

Congress and the Biden administration are rushing to get business wrapped up during this last workweek of the year for lawmakers before the former and president-elect takes the oath of office in January.

We begin with Congressman Mike Waltz of Florida, who is the incoming White House national security adviser.

Good morning to you.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ (R-Florida): Morning, Margaret.

Tough day for Army, but great day for America.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Indeed. Well, as a Green Beret, I know you had a reason to be cheering there for Army, sir.

I want to ask you a number of topics, but, before I go overseas, you sit on the House Intelligence Committee. You also, because of your new role, are in contact with President Biden’s national security adviser, Jake Sullivan.

Do you think the public should be concerned about these reported drones all over the East Coast? And have you the need for more authority to deal with them?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: Well, I think what the drone issue points out are kind of gaps in our agencies, gaps in our authorities between the Department of Homeland Security, local law enforcement, the Defense Department.

And I think Americans are finding it hard to believe we can’t figure out where these are coming from. And I can tell you, from the Defense Department standpoint, you know, they’re focused on bombers and cruise missiles, and – and it’s – it’s pointing to gaps in our capabilities and in our ability to clamp down on what’s going on here.

And we need to get to the bottom of it, and I think the Biden administration is – is working to do that.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But, at this point, given the intelligence you’ve seen, is there any reason for the public to be worried?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: Well, look, when you have sensitive sites like Picatinny Arsenal, you have, of course, President Trump’s residence at Bedminster, and you have other no-fly areas, those need to be enforced.

We need to know who’s behind it. But, right now, I think law enforcement seems to be – the Department of Homeland Security and the Defense Department are kind of all doing this and pointing at each other. So, when we come in, you know, how do we enforce these low-level, long-loitering, could-be-dangerous drones?

And one thing for people to appreciate, you know, they’re evolving so rapidly, it’s not necessarily somebody that’s just on the other end flying it. They could be following prepositioned GPS coordinates. They could be coming from offshore.

And we need to take a hard look at our homeland defenses. President Trump has talked about an Iron Dome for America. That needs to include drones as well, not just adversarial actions like hypersonic missiles.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: We need to have an all-of-the-above protection of U.S. airspace.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Understood.

Let – let me ask you about China. The president-elect said a few things in the past week about China, and he said his team has been talking and discussing, as he put it, with China’s President Xi Jinping.

CBS was the first to report that an invitation was extended to the inauguration, though we do not expect Xi to come. Was that the extent of the back-and-forth? Do the two leaders intend to speak by phone?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: Well, Margaret, it’s been amazing.

I mean, the entire world is reaching out to the president. In fact, it’s been a little overwhelming, the outreach, not only to speak with him, to congratulate him, but to even come to the inauguration themselves. So, the outreach has been tremendous.

President Trump is taking all calls. As you know, he believes in having a relationship with allies and adversaries at that kind of head-of-state level. And those conversations – those conversations are ongoing, but they are really nothing beyond congratulatory and niceties.

We are in communication with the current administration. We don’t agree on all things, but, as I have said before, none of our adversaries should think this is a moment to take advantage of this transition. We don’t agree with all things, but we are in full coordination with the current administration.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, China, you said there should be consequences because of their massive and pervasive hack of eight U.S. telecom companies, which has breached the metadata of potentially millions of Americans.

Senator Marco Rubio said it was egregious, dangerous, and a vulnerability that no one anticipated.

You’re going to be working together. What do you plan for the consequences to be?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: Yes.

I think Senator Rubio, and hopefully future Secretary of State Rubio, is absolutely right. We are – we have been over the years trying to play better and better defense when it comes to cyber.

We need to start going on offense and start imposing, I think, higher costs and consequences to private actors and nation-state actors that continue to steal our data, that continue to spy on us, and that, even worse, with the Volt Typhoon penetration, that are literally putting cyber time bombs on our infrastructure, our water systems, our grids, even our ports.

That is wholly unacceptable, and I think we need to take a much stronger stance. Senator Rubio is right. President Trump has indicated that as well. We need to start changing behaviors on the other side, rather than just constantly having this kind of escalation of their offense and our defense.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: The Colonial Pipeline hack was another key point.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: And then, finally, we’ve got a tremendous private sector with a lot of capability. That relationship between public and private, with our tech industry, they could be doing a lot of good and helping…

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, is this sanctions?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: … us defend, but also making our adversaries vulnerable.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Is it sanctions day one from the Trump administration?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: Well, I’m not going to get ahead of everything that we’re doing day one.

But taking a different approach to cyber, looking at our doctrine, and starting to impose costs on the other side to get them to knock this off is something we’ll be taking a look at, I think.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You were at Mar-a-Lago this past week when Hungary’s Prime Minister Viktor Orban met with Mr. Trump and Elon Musk and yourself.

He then announced that he had spoken to Vladimir Putin. Orban seems to be floating a Christmas cease-fire and a prisoner swap. Is he carrying with him some kind of message from Donald Trump?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: Well, Orban has regular engagement with the Russians, and he clearly has a good relationship with President Trump.

And I would hope the entire world would want to see some type of cessation to the slaughter that is happening in Eastern Ukraine. I mean, Margaret, people need to understand…

MARGARET BRENNAN: Did Mr. Trump ask him to do that?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: … this is World War I-style – this is World War I-style warfare. It is a meat grinder of human beings.

President Trump’s been very concerned about the carnage that’s ongoing. And where is this all going?

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: We need to stop the fighting. And, you know, look, if that is some type of cease-fire as a first step, again, we’ll – we’ll take a hard look at what that means.

But, until January 20, we are also in coordination with this current administration.

MARGARET BRENNAN: OK, so no message was sent through Orban to Putin by Trump? Is that – that’s what I understand you saying there?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: Oh, I’m not going to – yes, I’m not going to get into specifics of back-and-forths.

MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: But one is talking. Of course, we’re going to continue to talk. And President Trump’s made it clear he wants this war to stop.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Does the Trump team plan to limit how Ukraine can use U.S. weapons or targeting assistance when you take office?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: Well, President Trump just said in the interview that, you know, a blank check – in his interview with “TIME” magazine, I believe, you know, a blank check isn’t – you know, just isn’t a strategy, this just kind of forever war that we seem to be backing into.

What does success look like in line with our interests? How do we end the war? Who’s at the table? How do we drive, you know, all sides to the table? And what’s the framework for – for an agreement? Those are things that we’re thinking through with his fantastic team that he’s assembling.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Was that discussed in that 45-minute meeting that Mr. Trump had with Mr. Zelenskyy in Paris last week? And do you support putting NATO member states as peacekeepers in Ukraine?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: Well, you know, what’s been so interesting, Margaret, is, just since the election, everyone coming to us, our European allies, President Zelenskyy in that meeting, and others, have shifted to how to – that framework I just talked about.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: How do we end this conflict? How do we do it in a way that restores stability, stops the carnage, and hopefully makes this a permanent end, not just – not just a pause?

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: Those are all things that we’re thinking through.

And in terms of the question you just asked, the NATO secretary-general came here to Mar-a-Lago.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: He’s talking about the Europeans taking a bigger role in – whether that’s on the ground or otherwise, after this conflict is over, and that’s exactly what President Trump has been asking for.

MARGARET BRENNAN: I have to quickly ask you about the Middle East.

During the last Trump administration, Donald Trump pulled some U.S. troops out of Syria. Does he intend to keep the 900 U.S. troops there?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: Look, our number one interest is keeping a lid on ISIS. We cannot have an explosion of ISIS back into a caliphate that threatens Iraq, threatens Jordan, threatens Turkey and Europe, inspires attacks in the United States, like we saw in 2014.

President Trump cleaned it up then with his team. Thousands of ISIS fighters are in prison camps. We’re in consultation with the Israelis as well. They’re, importantly, taking down Assad’s chemical stockpiles, as well as other things we don’t want falling into the hands of anybody.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: And, you know, the other piece there that he asked for in the first term and that we need to see is, again, Europe, who was hit so badly by ISIS attacks, taking a greater role in keeping ISIS contained.

So those are all conversations that we’re having, again, in consultation with the current administration.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE WALTZ: And we’ll see moving forward.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Congressman Mike Waltz, thank you for joining us today.

Face the Nation will be back in a minute. Stay with us.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: And we’re joined now by Minnesota Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar.

Good to have you here.

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-Minnesota): Great to be back on, Margaret. Thanks.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Senator, I do want to ask you about these drones on the East Coast, because we looked at your record, and you actually cosponsored legislation a few years ago trying to expand authorities to deal with them.

Why do you need an act of Congress to deal with this? And why didn’t the Democrats move on it?

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: Well, first of all, the administration has repeatedly assured people that they are safe.

However, one, we need a briefing for the members of the Senate to figure out what’s going on here. Two, we need more transparency. And, three, I appreciated some of the congressman’s words, because what he was talking about is, we need to have a – new regulatory rules in place here.

Right now, you have to register a drone if it’s over a half-pound, and there are penalties if you don’t do that. Well, I think we have to make sure that regime is enforced with local and state authorities. And then we have got to figure out, do we really want all these drones?

Because while these may be safe, who knows what happens in the future? And they have to be within 400 feet. So, these things are going to be, what, flying over people’s family picnics and over their homes and over beaches? Like, this is not going to be a good future if we see too many of these.

So, I think – I was pleased that he said he wanted to move forward on some rules and finding a way to regulate these in a better way, because this just can’t be no one knows why this huge drone is right over their house.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So you might bring this up in the new Con – Republican controlled-Senate?

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: Yes.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Moving on, you sit on the Judiciary Committee.

So you’re going to have a key role in overseeing law enforcement under the Trump administration. And you will get to question his selectee to run the FBI, Kash Patel, who has published in his book a list of enemies, vowed retribution.

I want to play something for you that Republican Senator Murkowski said just a few days ago.

(Begin VT)

SENATOR LISA MURKOWSKI (R-Alaska): The approach is going to be, everybody, toe the line. Everybody, line up, we got you here, and if you want to survive, you better be good. Don’t get on Santa’s naughty list here, because we will primary you.

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: That is a remarkable thing for a Republican senator to say on the record as clearly as she said. She said they are being threatened if they don’t get in line and vote for some of these nominees.

Are you getting the sense from your Republican colleagues on judiciary they will get in line and vote through Kash Patel?

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: Sadly, there is some of that going on, but then you have other people, like Lisa Murkowski, who has always been a thoughtful, independent voice.

She believes her job is to do what our Constitution tells us, advice and consent, and also that we take an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. So, we have to do our due diligence and make decisions.

I voted for a number of the past Trump nominees for many different jobs. I looked at them and decided if I thought they were qualified, and could they perform the mission of the agency and did they have integrity? That’s what has to happen here.

And so, when you look at someone like Kash Patel, who would be replacing Christopher Wray, who I believe embodied – he was a Trump appointee, went through Biden, and embodied the mission of the FBI, which is fidelity, bravery, integrity.

And so now you have someone who says he’s on a revenge mission, when we should be on a national security, safety mission here, when we look at cybersecurity attacks that you just talked to – with the congressman about and various other things.

He says he wants to dismantle the FBI headquarters and turn it into a museum. To me, this is not the direction we need to go. So I appreciate Senator Murkowski’s words and also her demand and other Republicans. It’s going to be their decisions on these nominees. We may vote against them or for them.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: But, in the end, it’s their decisions.

Her demand for FBI reports and making sure that these are not recess appointments and there must be open hearings.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, because they have enough votes, essentially, to move on these on their own.

I want to ask you about President Biden. This past week, he had this record number of commutations, 1,500 Americans, more than any president in any single day. Among them, though, there was a judge involved in a so-called cash-for-kids scheme that sent thousands of kids to jail…

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: Did not like that one, no.

MARGARET BRENNAN: … for millions of dollars.

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: Mm-hmm.

MARGARET BRENNAN: A man who committed tax fraud…

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: Mm-hmm.

MARGARET BRENNAN: … at a cost of more than $1.6 billion, described as the most prolific, pernicious, utterly unrepentant tax cheat in U.S. history. A woman who was involved in a $26 million scheme to defraud Medicare.

Are you comfortable with some of these decisions?

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: No. There’s also a man in Duluth that was running a major drug house, basically, and had all this money under his bathroom tiles, was also commuted.

So, the way I look at this is, I also didn’t agree with the pardon of the president’s son.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: I also have not agreed with the number of pardons that President Trump gave.

So, I believe, and I have long advocated for this, that, while the pardon ability is part of our Constitution, we’re not going to change that, right?

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: Go way back to President Lincoln, who made hard decisions himself about deserters from the Army, things like that. That’s been going on a long time.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: But we should have some kind of an outside board that governors have. Governors have the ability to give mercy to people after years have gone by.

But a lot of them have boards that make recommendations and other things, instead of people just doing it in the middle of the night and people in the White House.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: This makes no sense to me.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, this is why it was so surprising, because the White House described it as just based on a broad category, and not the specifics of the case.

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: Exactly.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Was that prudent?

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: And so I have no doubt there were some righteous pardons in this group, OK, let’s say that. I believe that there were.

But there were a number that I think make no sense at all. So, instead of doing a whole category, why don’t, in a coming year, before the end of a president’s term, if that’s when they’re mostly going to do these…

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: … that a board looks at these and looks at them individually, when people petition for them, based on the facts, instead of just in a large group?

So, large groups have been done before, I believe, but I just – I think that this whole process cries out for reform, because, otherwise, you undermine the justice system.

And, again, I emphasize…

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: … this also happened in a big way under President Trump.

And you undermine the work of these line FBI agents, these line prosecutors who have taken on these cases, followed the sentencing guidelines and made a decision. Might you want mercy 10 years later? Yes, you might. But let’s at least look at these on a factual basis and a risk basis, instead of just in the middle of the night a month before a president leaves.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

Senator Klobuchar, thank you for being here today.

SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: It was great to be on. Thank you, Margaret.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be right back with a lot more Face the Nation. Stay with us.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: And we’re back now with the vice chairman of IBM, Gary Cohn, who also served as the White House economic adviser in President Trump’s first term.

Gary, welcome back.

It’s expected the Fed is going to cut rates again this week, even though we did see in the economic data released that inflation is still high. President Trump said, can’t lower prices once they’re high. Seems to be admitting that it’s not within the president’s remit to control what you spend at the grocery store.

GARY COHN (Former Director, White House National Economic Council): Margaret, thanks for having me.

You’re right. So we had two bits of economic data this week. We had consumer prices and we’ve had producer prices. Both came in on the high side of where economists were hoping. If you look at the consumer prices, we’re looking at about 2.7 percent on consumer prices.

Remember, the Fed’s target for inflation is about 2 percent.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

GARY COHN: So we’re running almost a percent high. Producer prices came in even higher than we were expecting. So we’re not down to that target 2 percent, where the Fed would like to get to.

That said, the Fed meting next week. The Fed is highly – it’s highly viewed that the Fed will cut interest rates by 25 basis points next week. That means, over the course of this year, they will have cut interest rates by 100 basis points.

Now, as you look forward into next year, people had projected they would cut a lot more. I think we are seeing the rate of cuts slow down, and slow down quite dramatically, as people are starting to evaluate the economic data that we have.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, what does that mean in terms of the economy President Trump will be inheriting?

GARY COHN: So, the president’s inheriting a very good economy, a very stable economy. We have real, solid economic growth. We have real job growth. We have real wage growth.

And I think some of the wage growth that we’re seeing, we’ve seen a lot of these union contracts be renegotiated in the second half of this year.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

GARY COHN: Those wages feed through the economy. They feed through as inflation.

So, the economy the president’s inheriting is quite strong. I think it will continue to stay quite strong. And, in fact, the American consumer today, as well as corporate America, is quite excited about what the Trump administration is talking about, and the business environment is very positive.

Corporate America is talking about a lot of expansion, a lot of capital expenditure for next year, about repatriating more jobs back to the United States, about building more factories in the United States, hiring more workers.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You think that will actually happen?

GARY COHN: I do think it’s going to happen.

So, net-net, we are talking about a very positive business and cycle going forward into 2025.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Is the stock market really the best way to gauge it? You saw Mr. Trump at the stock exchange this past week.

GARY COHN: Well, look, the stock market is one benchmark.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

GARY COHN: It’s a – it’s an index. It’s a benchmark.

And, remember, the stock market is an index.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

GARY COHN: There’s a – there’s a huge diversity of what’s going on in the stock market. There’s some of the tech stocks at the high end…

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

GARY COHN: … that are performing very, very well.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

GARY COHN: And there’s some of the more traditional stocks in the middle of the market that are not performing as well.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ve got to take a break and finish this conversation on the other side of it.

Stay with us, Gary.

We will be right back.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION.

We’re continuing our conversation now with Gary Cohn.

Gary, before the break you were telling us the business world has high expectations for the Trump administration. One of the things that Donald Trump promised to do in his second term was lower the corporate tax rate. So, you helped put together the tax plan that’s – that’s expiring in 20 – or part of it, sorry, expiring in 2025. He said at the New York Stock Exchange this week that he wants it to go down further from 21 percent. He really wanted to get it back down to 15. And we will be able to do that.

Will he be able to do that?

GARY COHN (Vice Chairman, IBM): Look, Margaret, we don’t know. You know, look, the whole tax discussion is going to happen over the course of 2025.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Why didn’t you do it in 2017?

GARY COHN: In 2017 we did not have the financial wherewithal to do it.

MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.

GARY COHN: When you go through reconciliation, which is how they will do taxes this time, in 2025, you are given instructions by the – by the Budget Committee. And the instructions are basically how much money you can spend or how much revenue you can take in. This time it will be how much money you can spend.

We did not have additional money to spend. So, the lowest we could get the corporate tax rate at that time was the 21 percent. That’s also the reason that the corporate tax part of the tax legislation 2017 expires the end of 2025. To score that piece of legislation, which in the financial requirements we were given by the Senate and the House Finance Committees, we had to end the personal side at the end of 2025.

So, we do know that taxes will be taken out by this Congress in this session. We know that they’re going to have to deal with the personal side of the equation because if not the personal side will revert back to the pre-2017 tax code.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

GARY COHN: That was a very arduous, ugly tax code with much higher rates, with a lot more loopholes, a lot more deductions. I don’t think anyone wants – on either side of the aisle wants to go back to the prior tax code.

You know when we open up tax code, even if we’re just talking about the personal side, the corporate side will come into play. And there’s always this interesting relationship between the personal side and the corporate side because the vast majority of companies in – in the United States are small businesses that file in – on – on a tax return that allows them to pay the personal rate. But there’s a difference between the personal rate and the corporate rate. And you want to make sure that those relationships don’t get too far out of – out of line with each other –

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

GARY COHN: So people aren’t incentivized to change their corporate structure to become a subchapter s corporation versus a corporation.

MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.

GARY COHN: So they can take advantage of the tax code. So, there’s – there’s always a lot of time spent there to make sure that the personal rate and the corporate rate makes sense in relationship to each other.

MARGARET BRENNAN: I think you said in the past, though, you don’t think the corporate rate should go down further.

GARY COHN: Well, the business community as a whole. When we did tax reform in 2017, and whether you look at the Chamber of Commerce, or you look at the business roundtable, you look at any of the business organizations, they were very supportive of a 21 percent tax rate. They, in fact, I think, would have been happy with anything at 23 percent or below, which put us in line with other OECD countries around the world. It made us competitive.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Other developed economies?

GARY COHN: Other developed economies. Obviously, companies will be happier if the tax rate goes lower, but realistically we just need, in this country, to be competitive with the rest of the world. We do not want corporate taxes to be a disadvantage for U.S. domicile companies.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The pick for Treasury secretary is hedge fund manager Scott Bessent. You may know him. He says he’s going to deliver on the Trump tax cut pledges, but that’s eliminating taxes on tips, Social Security, overtime pay.

Can he actually deliver on any of that?

GARY COHN: Look, Scott is a – quite an accomplished individual. So, the guy – I know he will put a lot of effort into this. He will have a lot of help with other people. Kevin Hassett, who’s going into my old job at the NEC, will have an important seat at the table. Kevin understands a lot of these policies.

There will be a lot of opinions at the table when we get to tax writing. You know, the House and the Senate will have their opinions. Remember, there are members of the House that ran on one item and one item only. They ran on the idea that we should bring back the state and local tax deduction, the SALT deduction. There were also members that ran on being deficit hawks. There were Republicans that ran on thinking that we have built up too much deficit and we need to get our budget under control. We’re going to have to find a way –

MARGARET BRENNAN: They’re not going to like any of these premises.

GARY COHN: I agree with that. But we’re going to have to find a way to balance all of these needs and get to a tax plan that makes sense but allows us to continue to drive our economy –

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

GARY COHN: Continue to drive the economic growth and continue to drive wages and jobs.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you heard the House speaker say some of this may be done through reconciliation, which implies that the Senate isn’t going to seek a majority vote here. They’re – they’re just going to try to put this through with 51 votes, do it in kind of an arcane way.

When is this going to happen? And should it happen before they fix the border?

GARY COHN: Well, it sounds like, from what I’m hearing, and, look, I don’t know, this could change any way. There’s other people smarter than I deciding on the strategy of this. It sounds like there may be two reconciliation bills. It sounds like the first reconciliation bill, which, you’re right, is a bill that allows the Senate to do something in a simple majority.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

GARY COHN: Budget related only. You can only reconcile a budget. Budget related with a simple majority. It sounds like there may be a first reconciliation bill –

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

GARY COHN: Which is border related. Where they may take back much of the unspent Inflation Reduction Act money and some of the other money that was appropriated under the Biden administration and use that to close the border.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And then they’ll get to taxes. Got it.

GARY COHN: And then use a second reconciliation bill, because there are two budgets out there.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

GARY COHN: As there were in the Biden administration.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

GARY COHN: Use that to – to go after taxes and fixing taxes, especially the personal side of taxes that ends in 2025.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. That’s a big fight to have in the year ahead.

Gary, we’ll be talking to you again then.

We’ve got to take a break.

GARY COHN: Thank you.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by the Ukrainian ambassador to the United States, Oksana Markarova.

Good to have you back with us.

OKSANA MARKAROVA (Ukrainian Ambassador to the United States): Thank you for having me and blessed Sunday to all.

MARGARET BRENNAN: No western power, as you know, is sending troops to Ukraine to help Ukrainian forces, but Russia’s got North Korean troops now who are fighting on their side. Yesterday, President Zelenskyy said Russia has been using a significant number of North Koreans. How are they fighting?

OKSANA MARKAROVA: Yes. So, and – we are not asking for other troops. Ukrainians are still capable of defending our own country. We’re asking for the military support.

Yesterday we have seen those tens of thousands of troops that we were warning the world about. We have seen hundreds of them on the battlefield already. And we are successfully fighting with them as we are fighting with the Russians. I mean, look, we – we see them now in (INAUDIBLE) only, and our great defenders were not only able to kill a lot of them, but also keep the positions.

So, it’s difficult, of course, to see the reinforcement from this access of evil, but it will not change anything for us. We will continue defending the very long line, whether it’s in southern eastern Ukraine or whether it’s our defensive operation in Kusk (ph).

MARGARET BRENNAN: And in the meantime, the North Korean troops are getting trained in modern warfare and they’re learning in Ukraine – I mean right there.

OKSANA MARKAROVA: Absolutely. And we also have to worry about what is it that Russia is promising or even delivering to North Korea in exchange for this.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. Yes.

OKSANA MARKAROVA: And Korean missiles.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But I also raise the manpower issue because it’s a problem for Ukraine as well. Military recruitment is tough right now in Ukraine. There has been pressure on your government by the United States to lower the draft age so that you can boost the number of fighters. This is arguably a bigger issue than the weaponry itself. Is it affecting the ability of Ukraine to keep up the fight?

OKSANA MARKAROVA: I wouldn’t agree that it’s a bigger issue than the equipment itself. We still have – first of all, we have a number of young people fighting for Ukraine. And they are volunteering. And women are volunteering. Ukraine is one of the countries that lifted all restrictions for women, for example, and we have 60,000 of women in the armed forces.

With the recruitment, the last changes to the law of mobilization, already allowed us to create new brigades, which we are training now. And the problem is to have enough equipment to train them on so that we can actually not send to the battlefield like Russians do, right, unprepared, whether it’s North Koreans who are unprepared, or Russians, but to send soldiers who can do and deliver on a mission. And it’s very important for us because every person matters for Ukrainians.

Of course there are challenges. And we have the plan and we know how to do it because, again, this is our home we are defending. So, when it’s necessary, all of us are going to be defending our country. But weapons and having more weapons, especially long range, especially something to counter this 3,000 glide bombs every month that Russians are sending against us, those missiles, both Russian and North Korean missiles.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

OKSANA MARKAROVA: I mean it’s still a question of artillery and weapons and air defense most importantly. And the more we can have, the faster we can – the more efficiently we can defend.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, I – the Biden administration has been releasing more weapons just in the last week alone, but Donald Trump gave an interview to “Time Magazine” and he said the United States is escalating by allowing for weapons – missiles to be shot into Russian territory. He specifically focused in on that. He does not like that Ukraine is doing it. What does that mean for you on day one of the Trump administration?

OKSANA MARKAROVA: Well, let me say – start by saying thank you to all American people, really, for standing with us all this time. Let me thank President Biden and his administration for all the support. Let me thank President Trump. He is the one who made a historic decision to provide us with Javelins, actually to provide us with lethal aid in the first place.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Back in 2017.

OKSANA MARKAROVA: Yes. So, right now we have to do everything in order to stop Russia, and we know it’s – it could be stopped. It was recently stopped in Syria. We liberated more than 50 percent that they have taken. We actually kicked them out from the Black Sea just with our own naval drone capabilities. They could – they – they – we can stop them. The more equipment we have, especially including the longer-range equipment, in order to be able to degrade their attack capabilities faster, the faster they will either come to the table because, again, Ukraine wants peace.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

OKSANA MARKAROVA: Nobody wants peace more than us. Ukraine was never a problem. We never initiated this conflict. And we negotiated at the first sight, remember in 2022 when Russians started negotiations. They, of course, did not negotiated peace. They negotiated the pause.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

OKSANA MARKAROVA: As we just heard Congressman Waltz, who absolutely rightfully said, it has to be peace, not a pause.

MARGARET BRENNAN: He was careful. He didn’t give a lot of specifics as to what the Trump policy will be. But we do know that Viktor Orbon was at Mar- a-Lago this past week and he talks to Vladimir Putin and he’s talking about a Christmas pause. Do you see a chance for a Christmas ceasefire and prisoner exchange?

OKSANA MARKAROVA: This is very difficult winter. After Russia destroyed our – a lot of our energy infrastructure and after, you know, we are going through this difficult fight, both on the front line but also civilians suffering from the deadly missile attacks.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Just this past week.

OKSANA MARKAROVA: Yes. At the same time, you know, every time Russia is talking about some ceasefire, they are lying. Russians are lying.

And we see they were not able to defend their buddy – terrorist buddy Assad and he fled to Russia. And we see horrible atrocities in Saydnaya prison, like we see in Ukraine everywhere.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

OKSANA MARKAROVA: It reminded me, isolation prison in Denesk, which still is operational.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

OKSANA MARKAROVA: So, look, you know, if Russia wants seriously to stop it, they can stop it at any time.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. OK.

Ambassador, I have to leave it there. Thank you so much for joining us.

OKSANA MARKAROVA: Thank you.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be back in a moment.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Scenes of jubilation in Damascus as thousands of Syrians mark the first Friday of prayers since the fall of the Assad regime one week ago. Our Elizabeth Palmer has more.

(BEGIN VT)

ELIZABETH PALMER (voice over): I have never seen Damascus so filled with joy. Bashar al Assad, the dictator, had fled to Moscow. And just like that, the fear of saying something that might get you arrested was gone. The Islamist fighters who had seized power a week ago were partying, too. In the main suuk (ph), shoppers walked on Assad’s face. While at Saydnaya Prison, where his critics were tortured and killed, crowds poured in to what Syrians used to call the slaughterhouse.

ELIZABETH PALMER: It’s some kind of maybe underground holding cells.

ELIZABETH PALMER (voice over): This is where political prisoners were disappeared.

ELIZABETH PALMER: Horrible. Dark. Damp. Smelly. Cold.

ELIZABETH PALMER (voice over): All week families combed the cells for clues that might tell them what happened to their husbands, their fathers, their sons.

In a house near Damascus we met an American, Travis Timmerman, who’d entered Syria illegally and being locked up in an Assad jail since May.

ELIZABETH PALMER: You got more than you bargained for, didn’t you?

TRAVIS TIMMERMAN: Well, I mean –

ELIZABETH PALMER: (INAUDIBLE)?

TRAVIS TIMMERMAN: Yes.

ELIZABETH PALMER (voice over): He is a lucky man.

As soon as the regime fell, local people set him and the rest of prisoners free.

At the ancient Omayad mosque, the fighters leader, Abu Mohammad al-Jolani was welcomed a conquering hero. He’s changed his look from the old days when he was affiliated with al Qaeda. And a master of modern messaging, he posted on X, too, inviting all Syrians to join in rebuilding the country.

His inner circle has promised elections in March. But not everyone buys it. Rumors are spreading like wildfire that no matter what they say, these men mean to rule like al Qaeda 2.0.

ELIZABETH PALMER: Syrians are afraid, especially the Christian and Alawite minorities, that when the dust settles they’ll find that a new tyranny has simply replaced the old.

(END VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s Elizabeth Palmer in Damascus.

We spoke with the executive director of the U.N.’s World Food Programme, Cindy McCain, last week and began by asking about the situation in Syria and how her organization is getting food to those who need it most.

(BEGIN VT)

CINDY MCCAIN (Executive Director, U.N. World Food Programme): Well, our deliveries so far have been very – very smooth. But we need more delivery options open, which is what this was eluding to.

More importantly, we have been able to get 70,000 people fed this – this month so far, but we need more. And – and, more importantly, we need the funds to do it. That’s where we’re lacking.

You know, WFP never left Syria. We’ve always been in there. But now we need more routes, more ability to get in and to get not just more trucks but more people in so that we can help in the best way we can.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The U.S. still has some sanctions on Syria, but they do let in U.N. humanitarian aid. There was a call in Congress, a bipartisan one this week, for the United States to lift some sanctions. Are you experiencing U.S. sanctions getting in your way at this point?

CINDY MCCAIN: Not really. We’ve – we’ve been able to, as – as you said, we’ve been able to move our goods through our food items, et cetera, through and get it to where it needs to go in a safe and quick manner as well. But – but I – I don’t – I will never under state – under – under estimate the process with things that could – it could infringe us later on. So, I’m hoping that things stay calm, that we can move our goods, again, in a safe and secure manner and do it at full scale. If we can’t work at scale, we can’t feed.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And you said you’re short on funds. How much do you need?

CINDY MCCAIN: Oh, worldwide, I could use 17 billion right now if you want to know the truth. There’s so much – there’s so many – many countries that have absolutely no access to any funding, no one’s paying any – any attention to it.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, why did you say funding is down? People are just not paying attention?

CINDY MCCAIN: Yes, countries are – are rerouting their funding in different ways. They’re choosing to fund things in different manners or not to fund at all. And I’m asking now. I’m asking on your show worldwide to please consider once again giving to Syria because people in Syria will starve to death without it. And – and we’ve seen the evidence of great hunger there.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You know, you and I have spoken in the past on this program about the U.S. contributing so generously to the U.N., the largest funder, arguably the most important partner to the United Nations.

CINDY MCCAIN: Yes.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And you had encouraged Beijing to really kind of step up their game. And you had said there was somewhat of a lack of willingness to be a part of working together as a team worldwide.

Have you seen any change to that?

CINDY MCCAIN: Not much. I encourage all countries to get involved, including China. We need help from everybody.

The world is on fire right now, and hunger – hunger is at the forefront of all of this. And most importantly, you know, when people are hungry, this becomes a national security issue. And so it affects not only the countries that it’s affecting, but it affects us worldwide. And it does affect national security. So, it’s important that every country worldwide get involved and be involved in this.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, I want to ask you about Sudan. I know you were recently there. It’s in the midst of a brutal civil war. The U.S. has accused both sides of ethnic cleansing. Can you keep trucks going into Sudan to feed people there?

CINDY MCCAIN: Oh, it’s such a complicated situation. We – right now we have 30 some convoys on the road going into Sudan to hit the various places that we need to get to, but we need more. Certainly Darfur has been a big issue, but we have other parts of the country that are just as needy and where – where famine does exist. As you know, it’s been declared there. And we need – we need also to be able to come through Khartoum and make sure that we can – can access from that direction as well.

It’s been a slow process, but we have been able to get in. But we need more. Again, food security is national security. Don’t ever forget that. Because if people are insecure from a food – from a food reality, they’re not going to behave well. And things – they start to migrate. Wars begin that way. Conflict is a part of all of this.

MARGARET BRENNAN: I’d be remiss to not ask you about what’s going on in Gaza. Jake Sullivan, President Biden’s national security adviser, said this week the U.S. has stood up to Prime Minister Netanyahu to say let’s make sure that Israel is not responsible for the third famine of the 21st century. Are we at famine in Gaza?

CINDY MCCAIN: We’re very close to it. We’ve seen the effects of it. We’ve seen what’s – what’s going on.

Listen, this – we’re in the month of November. WFP has been able to get two trucks in. That’s all. Two trucks in the month of November. And, you know, and, of course, now we’re into December. This whole – this while issue of not being able to get in is – is unseemly. We need unfettered access. We need a cease-fire. And we need it now. We can’t – there’s – we can no longer sit by and just allow these people to starve to death. We need help and we need to make sure that we put political pressure on those that need to have political pressure put on them.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ve seen images of – of crowds just crushing people amassing at bakeries in Gaza. Ninety percent of the population cannot return to their homes. They’re displaced. Only four bakeries are operational for nearly 2 million people. This is manmade.

CINDY MCCAIN: It is manmade. You’re absolutely right, it is manmade. And – and, more importantly, the world needs to take a hard look at this and realize that not just – not just do they need food, but we need access. And that targeting of humanitarian aid workers is unconscionable. We need to get in and do our job. And – and more importantly, in all of this, make sure that we can feed. People – children especially are starving to death. I mean the height of malnutrition, the height of hunger within – within that region is – is unbelievably horrible. And so we’ve seen be it firsthand. And I – I, as the leader of the largest humanitarian aid agency in the world, are – I’m calling for a ceasefire. And I want my aid – my fellow partners within this arena to call for the same thing.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Understood. You used the word targeted. Who’s targeting your workers?

CINDY MCCAIN: Well, there’s lots of things that are going on there. There’s gangs that are running – if we’re speaking directly about Gaza, it’s gangs that’s running around. It’s the lawlessness.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Director McCain, I know you have a lot of need you’re looking for. Seventeen billion is the number you are asking for.

CINDY MCCAIN: Yes.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We wish you good luck feeding the world.

CINDY MCCAIN: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

(END VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be right back.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s it for us today. Thank you for watching. Until next week, for FACE THE NATION, I’m Margaret Brennan.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)